Did you know that women represent over 52% of the professional workforce, but they only occupy 24% of C-Suite roles and only 10% of Fortune 500 companies are led by women? What if the main barriers holding women back are actually outdated cultural assumptions that we have about the concept of work? Dr. Tara Schwegler is back to talk about how challenging our assumptions about work can help advance gender equality and make our teams and workplaces more diverse and inclusive. It's time to get off auto-pilot in our workplaces and rethink what it means to lead a team that works well. Tara provides steps to do just that, including tips for leaders at all levels. Resources:
About Tara:
Tara Schwegler is a cultural anthropologist with over 25 years of qualitative research experience in the corporate and academic sectors and a Senior Lecturer at the University of Texas at San Antonio. Tara began her career as a Collegiate Assistant Professor at the University of Chicago and pivoted to the private sector after a family move to Texas. Tara has published widely in peer-reviewed journals and is a passionate advocate for women in leadership. She advises companies on strategies to improve gender equality, and she recently completed a book manuscript titled, Set Up to Fail: Why Women Lean Back and What We Can Do About It.
Transcript
While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.
Teri Schmidt:
Hello, Tara. Welcome back to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. I would love for you to do a brief introduction for anyone who hasn't yet listened to episode 73 when you were on last, but then I'd love to just hear an update about what you've been up to since we last spoke.
Tara Schwegler:
Wow, Teri. Thank you so much for having me, and, Oh my goodness. Where has the 18 months gone? I know. Wow. I am a cultural anthropologist with a passion for using anthropology to understand issues in the workplace. And, specifically, I focus on women's leadership as well as the future of work. And I advise companies on how to better promote women in leadership, and I recently completed a book manuscript called Set Up to Fail, Why Women Lean Out and What We Can Do About It. So I am primarily a researcher and a professor, and so I lead research projects in the private sector and in the academic sector, They're all about trying to understand human behavior and how we can better improve the workplace.
Tara Schwegler:
So most recently, I've been teaching at the University of Texas This is San Antonio on women's leadership and a very fun course on the anthropology of food. And as well, I was a research leader at Meta where I led research on individual privacy. And it's interesting when we talk about leadership. I've reflected on this concept a lot, and there are ways in which I feel feel like I've led teams, and that's part of who I am as a leader. But I also think that in terms of way that I lead Day to day is by encouraging others to challenge deep seated assumptions that they have and mindsets that they have. I think these days more than ever, It's so easy to get stuck on autopilot and just tune the rest of the world out and go about your day the same way every day. And I think it is so important to ask the tough questions not only of ourselves, but of the people around us and push at some of what we think are the perceived boundaries, especially as we get into this conversation about the gender leadership gap. Yeah.
Tara Schwegler:
So in my in my speaking, in my consulting, in my writing, I'm always trying to inspire my audience to ask why and to challenge what they think is the conventional wisdom.
Teri Schmidt:
I love that because we do get stuck on autopilot. I think both with our lives, but then also with our thoughts and and our beliefs. And I think there's a lot of content out there whether it be on LinkedIn or otherwise, particularly in the leadership arena, that you're gonna be, you know, seeing and hearing the same thing over and over again. And I think doing some of that critical thinking and that digging in and asking why, in all facets of our lives is really important and can bring up some insights and some new ways of doing and being that maybe you hadn't considered.
Tara Schwegler:
You know, I'm so glad you mentioned that because I'm astounded as much as I try to push boundaries for myself and ask myself why. I still have situations where I realize that I have a set view of how this should happen, and sometimes that set mindset about how something should go down is actually holding me back, and it's preventing me from seeing other ways of achieving my goals. And that's been something that when I talk about leadership, I don't think that any one of us ever is the perfect leader. I think that leadership is a journey. It's always about trying to improve and and get better in specific areas. And so I guess I'm case in point that I'm still working on some
Teri Schmidt:
Right. Right. Well, I would hope that we all are. I mean, that's what excites me about leadership is The unique ways that people can be leaders and present as leaders because of who they are uniquely as a person, but then also that, you know, they're never done. They're they're always learning, and they're always adapting to new situations, and that adaptation leads to their growth as a leader.
Tara Schwegler:
Well, and I love the emphasis on on learning because I think the older I get, the more I appreciate That experience people have in different context. And I think we're so quick to say, oh my goodness. I didn't achieve my desired end, so, therefore, I failed. And, Actually, if you don't have those challenges and you don't have those times when it didn't go as expected, you can't learn.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah.
Tara Schwegler:
And so just like in a gym CLASS, no pain, no gain. I mean, in in life and leadership, it's the same way. Sometimes you falter a little bit, but that's how You discover, hey. Maybe the way I was thinking about this situation wasn't the right perspective, or maybe I wasn't leaning into the right trait. Yeah.
Teri Schmidt:
I know last time you were on, we were talking particularly about the gender leadership gap. And I wonder if you could just quickly recap what you mean by that, what it is, and why it's important for us to pay attention to.
Tara Schwegler:
Great. Well, the gender leadership gap comes down to some very simple math about what's going on in the workplace. So women represent over 52% of the professional workforce, But they only occupy 24% of c suite roles, and only 10% of Fortune 500 companies are led by women. And so by c suite roles, I mean, chief officers, either chief operating officer, chief executive officer, chief financial officer, those types of roles that are responsible for the strategic direction of companies. Women are only 24% of those roles. When you look at corporate boards, you see similar numbers where there's a real imbalance between the number of women in a company and the number of women on corporate boards. Women are staying in the labor force. I think there's a conception out there.
Tara Schwegler:
Well, they're not advancing because they're not staying in the labor force. They're either opting out to take care of families or to, take care of caregiving responsibilities, but in fact, that's not the case. We did see a drop in the number of women in the labor force during the COVID pandemic, but that has bounced back. And so this is not an issue of there aren't enough women to occupy those roles. There's something that happens. Women get stuck along the way. We see that women and men get promoted to the 1st level of management at fairly similar rates, but then women stagnate at that level and men continue to move forward. So, basically, what it comes down to is that men and women are entering the workforce at similar rates with Women actually have higher levels of educational achievement, same level of ambition, but women are somehow getting stuck in the middle.
Tara Schwegler:
And that's really where it's important for us focus our energies and ask why. What's also interesting about the gender leadership gap is it is true across all industries. There are certain industries out there that are known as pink collar industries because they've historically been dominated by women. So these might be things such as education, nursing, those fields where women have formed the majority. Even in those fields, when you look up at the higher leadership level, suddenly, They become dominated by men, and you scratch your head a little bit and say, wait a minute. This where did these men come from there? Those aren't that many. And and so it's a fascinating question, and there are so many different facets for why that is. It's not one single explanation.
Tara Schwegler:
But when I think about Why does this matter? Why do we need to talk about this? There are there are 3 angles that I think about. 1 is pure and simple fairness. Right? If if women are equally talented and represent half of the labor force, then they should represent half of the leadership. Mhmm. And what we can Can infer by the fact that they don't always see themselves in that senior leadership is that that can have a real negative effect on employee morale. If employees don't feel like they're being rewarded for the contributions they're making, then that can cause them to tune out. That can cause them to to burn out even. There's a second component of this.
Tara Schwegler:
It's very fascinating. There's been a lot of research dedicated to trying to quantify the value of Both diversity in terms of gender and diversity in terms of ethnic and racial diversity in comp in companies and specifically leadership and how that affects mixed profitability. There are several studies that support the claim that higher gender and racial and ethnic Equality in companies leads to higher profitability. So there's a study that was conducted by Lean and and McKinsey That said companies with above average gender and ethnic diversity are 8 times more likely to be in the top 10% of organizations for financial performance. And there was a similar analysis by the Peterson Institute that concluded that women's presence in corporate leadership is strongly correlated with performance and up to a 15% increase in net revenue. So, you know, there are financial benefits to having more diverse leadership. And then finally, when we think in terms of innovation, it requires diverse perspectives. It requires people with different life experiences.
Tara Schwegler:
And so we're missing out on innovation. We're missing out on opportunities if we don't have these distinct voices in leadership.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. And if anyone has listened to the podcast, you know, really since the inception, would know that I wholeheartedly agree. And we've had many sessions with different experts that reiterate exactly what you're saying there, that organizations, companies work better when they have more diversity in their leadership, and I love the 3 points that you called out there. Now I I'd have heard, you know, as people are looking at different solutions for how we can fix this gender leadership gap. I have heard people saying, Well, maybe we just need their partners to stay home so that they can fully focus on work. Why is that not the answer?
Tara Schwegler:
So it's it's really interesting. At the individual level, I think in a in a couple, no matter whether it is a a Heterosexual couple or a same sex partnership. I think that if 1 person wants to stay at home and another wants to go to work, I fully support that, but there there are few problems. So that solution overlooks the economic reality that 61% of American families are dual earner. So maybe 50 years ago, those numbers were very different, and that division of labor having 1 person stay at home and 1 person be in the workplace was more viable both socially and economically, but we just don't see that that many families have the choice, so it might not be a viable solution. Mhmm. But there's another aspect of this that I think is really important, and it's interesting. Oftentimes, we have People with high higher education marrying other people with higher education.
Tara Schwegler:
And if we make that trade off and say, well, 1 person can go to a workforce and 1 person stays at home, Even if we reverse the gender and we say, well, the dads will be the ones to stay at home and the moms will be the ones to go to work, you're still losing out on really valuable talent. And what I see in my analysis of the workplace is that we're in a, you know, 247 place that requires extreme commitment from workers. Like, if you're not available to field calls at 11 PM and first thing in the morning, Then you are viewed as not as capable of an employee even if your performance is very strong, and that's what Really hurts these dual earner couples because somebody's got to pick up the kids at school. And I've seen so many cases as a no of so many of my my friends and colleagues who put in tremendous numbers numbers of hours, but they can't always do it Exactly within, you know, the 8 to 5 period. Mhmm. And because they don't necessarily fit that mold, there are stigmas associated with those patterns of working. Yeah. So when we when we ask 1 parent to stay at home and another to go to work, If that's something that both parties want, I fully support it.
Tara Schwegler:
But I think that it can just lead to reversing the the problem that we have now, which is You might have 2 partners that really want to make a contribution.
Teri Schmidt:
Right. Right. And, you know, you were talking about your your last point, about innovation. You know, it's not it's not like we get more innovation when there are more women there. I mean, it's definitely a a different I'm sure there are different types of ideas that come forth, but it's the fact that you have that diverse experience that's coming into the problem solving, coming into the innovation.
Tara Schwegler:
Absolutely, Teri. I'm so glad you pointed that out. It's not, this this whole concern that I have about Having equality in the workplace is not that I want 1 you know, don't wanna change and just change who's who's monopolizing. I I want it to be something that's more reflective of our reality, and I'm most interested in a workforce that is accepting of alternative career paths. And if 1 partner steps out of the workplace for a year or 2 and then the other partner I mean, there are all sorts of strategies that families can do and used to maintain their their the patient in the workforce. Yeah. But most of those strategies are not ones that employers are all that keen on.
Teri Schmidt:
Interesting. Interesting. And and your point, you know, it almost makes me a little bit sad as you were talking about your friends and colleagues who, you know, because they aren't in that traditional 8 to 5 schedule. You know, maybe maybe even they have a half hour out of that 8 to 5 schedule that's different from everyone else's. I mean, we're not talking huge deviations. But because they're not, they're not viewed as as capable. And I just you know, it makes me think about why is that. And I think it gets back to businesses often are are focused on the wrong metrics when we're looking at capability of an employee.
Teri Schmidt:
You know? Is it and and, again, another another topic we could have a whole another episode on, because we could talk about, you know, return to office and things like that. And but yeah. It's just it's It's interesting and a little bit sad that that is the case, but I love the the work that you're doing in the push, particularly for achieving this gender equality in the workplace. So tell me, why is that so important to you?
Tara Schwegler:
It's so important to me because I've had personal experiences. It's interesting when I reflect on my own history and I think about pivotal moments in my own experience, I'd never really felt that that being a woman held me back. I felt very, very supported, and it wasn't until I had children that I started to just experienced situations that felt a little bit off, and I couldn't quite understand. There was when I was pregnant with my 2nd daughter, I was invited to present and do a job talk at a university, and they asked me to come to the university on my due date. And there was an awkward moment. They didn't they didn't the the people who were interested in hiring me didn't know I was pregnant. They hadn't met me in person. But there was this awkward silence on the other side of the phone, and and the person said to me, I don't know what to do about that.
Tara Schwegler:
We've never had that happen before. And, you know, obviously, I didn't speak out loud, but in my head, I was thinking this is not some strange situation. Right. You know, it just happens that the interview date is falling on my due date, and they had to go to the provost of the university to try to figure out how to accommodate this, quote, unusual situation, which is not that you know? And I I think it's part of this whole idea of a mindset That that should not be regarded as a highly unusual situation. Now that was some time ago. I think things have changed, but it it actually You know, it's those kinds of experiences when you need to leave work early to go pick up a child and you get this feeling from those around you the the sort of eye rolling. The it's that kind of experience Yeah. That mothers are having.
Tara Schwegler:
And when you look at the data, Active discrimination against women is has declined over time, but we see that there are still really, really drawn negative views of women's productivity in the workplace when they also have caregiving responsibilities. Mhmm. And when I talk about changing mindsets, I think that that's one of the most damaging mindsets out there is that somehow, Because someone has to go pick up kids after school, that that makes her a less productive employee. You talk to most managers, and they will say, no. Actually, Those are the ones who know how to get things done most quickly and effectively and are some of the hardest workers. And so It's just a a very unfair situation to find yourself in that in the course of having this experience, which is typical for many people Mhmm. To to experience the stigma associated with it.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. I you talk about the mindset being one thing. What Beyond that is your vision for achieving gender equality in the workplace. How how do we get there, and kinda what are some of the barriers to realizing that vision.
Tara Schwegler:
So when you talk to you know how if you go to a doctor and he has a certain specialty or she has a certain specialty, you'll you'll see the diagnosis in terms of that specialty. So I'm an anthropologist, and I think a lot about culture. And I've come to believe That many of the things these invisible barriers that hold women back are actually outdated cultural assumptions that we have about the concept of work. If you look in American history and just the way that we've been a very pick yourself up by your bootstrap, You know, work is the way to greatness. And, by the way, I I think that that's a wonderful way to be, but I also think that we have come to associate work with It must be a form of sacrifice, which actually means that when we think about work, life balance, it's incompatible with our definition of work. We have all of these cultural assumptions that work must must be difficult. It must be a sacrifice. It has to occur in a certain way, you know, that work in American society today.
Tara Schwegler:
Even though many of us work atypical schedules, if you asked a person to say, well, what's the typical schedule? Say, well, 8 to 5, Monday through Friday. That's actually a pattern that developed during the 20th century when we got office Culture is not necessarily a pattern that suits every industry, but many of our models and cultural assumptions about work core developed during the industrial and early administrative periods of our history, and we've just we Do it this way because we've always done it this way. Mhmm. And to go back to your point about mindsets that businesses have, it's not that that people are bad for thinking that this is effective. I think the challenge for us is just to say, well, wait a minute. Does it does it really have to be that way? Can you make these little micro modifications? So even to your point, I think the thing that, really, I find difficult in the current debate over Remote work versus in person work is it doesn't have to be 1 or the other. I think if you asked a lot of parents, they would be happy to go into the office For the 1st part of the day, pick up their kids and finish up the day at home, but that's not even on the table because we have such a binary view of what work is. And I I would say, actually, that according to my ideas about work, part of the reason there's So much resistance to this idea of working at home is because we fundamentally believe that work is something that takes place outside of the home.
Tara Schwegler:
Yeah. That that's part of the the equation for us. So it's really, really difficult for us to swallow this pill of no People actually can be productive at home.
Teri Schmidt:
Your comment about work is supposed to be a sacrifice jumped out to me, and I I think so We have that. We have the work is supposed to be outside of the home. In your view, if we were to redefine what work could be so that It would help us to achieve more of this gender equality. What would be some statements that might describe work. Instead of work being a sacrifice or work being something outside of the home, in your mind, what what would define work, and what would replace some of those statements?
Tara Schwegler:
We would be thinking about work in terms of some type of productive relationship that benefits an employee and benefits an employer, Where we take that there there is a moral judgment steeped in that idea of work as a form of sacrifice. It's like I'm a a noble person foregoing all other things because I work. If we could take that that implicit moral judgment out of the equation. Our work can be incredibly fulfilling. I desire to be a productive and contributing member of whatever team that I'm on or whatever team I'm leading, but it's not I don't think that we need to to put in these these moral judgments about, well, you know, staying at work for longer, it makes you better. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Getting your work done and fulfilling your purpose at work is is where we really should be putting that judgment, not in terms of are you sacrificing everything else.
Tara Schwegler:
So I would want work to be viewed as something that shifts depending on the context. Right now, as I mentioned before, we have this idea that work Happens in the same way for everyone. And I think as we move towards more technology and we move towards more ways of allowing people to work in different styles. Each of us is is neurologically different. We have you know, some of us can sit down for 2 or 3 hours and really, really focus. For some people, that's not possible, and yet we expect and we envision that each employee is gonna sit down for 8 hours straight and just work continuously across those 8 hours. Mhmm. What's interesting to me is as we have AI integrated into our our work, We might be able to adapt those patterns.
Tara Schwegler:
I mean, I know how I work most effectively, and it's it's never 8 hours of continuous effort. It's, You know, it goes up and down during the day, and we're all struggling to find out what is the best way for me to accomplish the most. How wonderful would it be if our employers were onboard with that instead of saying, this is how it has to be? Mhmm. Having that conversation saying, what's What works best for you? Now I realize it's impossible to adapt every single individual situation, but we could take some steps towards that Yeah. Be much more effective.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. What would that look like? What would those first initial steps be in your mind?
Tara Schwegler:
The first thing that I think we need to do is really challenge ourselves on when some of these assumptions that you and I have talked about creep into our language. And let me tell you, they creep into my language, so it's not like I'm an outsider saying, oh, everybody else does it wrong. I I do it too Sometimes. Mhmm.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. Because that's what we've been I I don't wanna say raised in, but, really, pretty much what we've been raised in.
Tara Schwegler:
That that is. And you look at at cultural Tropes that we have in entertainment. It's just if you think about it, one of the things really fascinates me is the over the workaholic mother trope.
Teri Schmidt:
Mhmm.
Tara Schwegler:
Right. The workaholic mother is the one who is always thinking about work over other things, and she's always picked it as an incompetent or incapable mother. Right? And most of the women that I know that work really hard are actually pretty great moms too. So we we need to get over it, but but yet it gets represented to us as if, no, if you're great in this, you can't be good in that. And that's just not the reality that that I see out there, and it's not the reality that I want to represent to younger people because that that doesn't sound so Appealed. Perfect. So it's it starts with a couple of different steps. So I When I work with companies, when I when I advise individuals, I I, first of all, ask them to really think about the way that they talk about work.
Tara Schwegler:
There are ways in which you talk about work that that implicitly hold one pattern above another.
Teri Schmidt:
Mhmm.
Tara Schwegler:
I think another thing that we can do, interestingly enough, is if someone is asking for some flexibility in their schedule, I don't think there needs to be a conversation about why. I think that when we're on Teams, the discussion shouldn't be, well, so and so needs flexibility to pick up the child from day care and so and so needs this and so and so needs that. That actually leads to resentment on teams. That leads to this idea that, well, Those people caregiving responsibilities are more important than things that matter to me. Right. So I would like us to recognized the need for accommodating people regardless of their family or caregiving situation. I actually think that that is a really good way to start building unity among teams. And instead of saying, well, you know, the parents are getting special treatment or people with caregiving responsibilities are getting special treatment.
Tara Schwegler:
Know this is a workplace that that embraces you as an employee and your needs. Mhmm. So I also want as possible, I want Leaders to think about this in terms of not either all or nothing, but I want them to look for opportunities to experiment And pilot a little bit. Like, you don't have to go all in. You could say, hey. Let's try, you know, Let's try it and see if we allow some of the people on the team to work for part of the day from the office and then go home and finish that day. Let's set some metrics in place, and let's do an experiment. Because I think right now, we're just talking in, you know, generalizations about, well, that won't work.
Tara Schwegler:
You know, that would mess everything up. Well, it doesn't take a lot to do a small experiment. We'll know really quickly what what are the outcomes we were hoping for and what happened.
Teri Schmidt:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. You're You're speaking my love language of data. So
Tara Schwegler:
Well, and I think that's you know, if we don't set out the clear objectives that we are targeting, Then the discussions about whether it worked or didn't just get all muddy.
Teri Schmidt:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Tara Schwegler:
You know?
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. So questioned because we are in kind of some uncertain times. You know, the data goes back and and forth. But I do know one thing, at least in my conversations with employees, with leaders, that there's so much anxiety and uncertainty in our workplaces right now. So given that, why should leaders care about working toward a vision where we have a different definition of work, where it is easier to achieve that gender equality. Why should they care at this point when there's so much else on their plate?
Tara Schwegler:
So I have so much empathy for for leaders because I I think that there are so many things that are on our table, and it's hard to know which one is the most important, but I would say we see a lot of signs right now that younger generations are are resisting this particular definition of work, and we see it in this phenomenon that's been described as quiet quitting, Which, by the way, I as far as I can tell, quiet quitting is just not exceeding expectations, just meeting expectations. So even the way we talk about That concept to me shows this mindset about work that we have. But so I think that there are generational concerns that need to be need to be highlighted because the workplace needs to embrace everyone. And if we're losing younger generations because of a Definition of work that's not viable. We're gonna have some long term problems. And so what I would say to leaders is this is a problem you really can't avoid because this is a reality that most employees face. And, look, at every single point where there's been an opportunity, Workers and especially working parents have have let it be known. One of the reasons that so many working parents and caregivers or resisting going back to the office is because of the lack of flexibility and some of the standards that exist at the office.
Tara Schwegler:
So that's sending a message, a very strong message. And so I I think that we're talking about this indirectly in all of these different important conversations, So approaching it from this direction would allow us to consciously and very thoughtfully addressed these issues rather than addressing them through these other conversations.
Teri Schmidt:
Mhmm. Do you have or have you seen or read about any examples of a business that is doing this well, that has maybe a different perspective on work, or that is getting closer to the vision you described for gender equality.
Tara Schwegler:
I think that it is working. I don't have really good examples in the United States at a at a corporate level. There are actually some law firms out there run by women who are doing a really good job of accommodating different schedules and allowing High performing lawyers to more effectively balance their their family responsibilities with their careers by allowing them to do certain work come out of the office. In fact, some of the firms didn't even have an office and allowing them to do the work at nontraditional hours. So I think there are certain professions They're doing this better than others, and I think they're really good examples from other parts of the world. So in terms of gender equality, we see a lot of the Scandinavian countries consistently performing really well. Iceland is one that for the past, I think that the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Equality Index, which has been produced for, I think, the past 17 years. Iceland's been number 1 for all of those years, and that's because they make a really concerted effort to focus on gender equality.
Tara Schwegler:
In fact, it is part of their constitution that this is something that needs to exist. And so I see it in in different parts of the world, and I see certain companies that are interested, but feel like it's too much of a lift. And I think my role as an advocate out there is to Help everyone understand. It's not that much of a lift. We can start making progress.
Teri Schmidt:
And and in that vein, If you were sitting across the table from an individual leader, maybe maybe a lower level leader, so perhaps She doesn't feel like she has that much power to change anything. What would be your advice for steps that she should be taking with her team?
Tara Schwegler:
So I would love to make this something that is a conversation with the entire team. I would encourage her. So let's let's think about it. She will be evaluated on results. Mhmm. When I've been in various leadership roles at companies, I'm evaluated in terms of Business impact and how much I mentor and support my team so I can actually combine business impact and mentoring and coaching By having a conversation, not just 1 on 1 with individuals on my team to learn how they work most effectively, but we can have team conversations about How do we work most effectively? How can we support one another? Are there times? So especially in the work that I do, but I think this is true in so many fields. In research, you do need some heads down time, and I have consistently spoken to my teams and said, look. If you put heads down time to do To analyze your results, put that on your calendar, and I will not bother you, and I will defend that time.
Tara Schwegler:
And and in the companies that I've worked at, that's been perfectly fine. But I I also would encourage leaders, let your team know that you are there to support the ways that they work most effectively, and try to step back from your preconceived notions of this is how work should work and reflect on what is it that I that I want people on my team to be doing. How do I bring that out most effectively? Because The reason I think it's so important for leaders who maybe feel that they don't have as much influence is if your team thrives in that environment, That's going to catch people's attention. They're gonna say, wow. Look what she's doing with that team. We need to ask some questions. Mhmm. And and you know what? It's actually the case that that seeing it work Mhmm.
Tara Schwegler:
Will convince others, like, well, maybe we should relax some of these ideas that They have.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. You know? The people are gonna see the success and want more of that for themselves. Yeah. And the other thing I love that you pointed out in your advice is that it's not starting the conversation with your team with the question. Okay.
Teri Schmidt:
You know, what flexible work arrangements do you want, or what would make it easier? It's instead focusing in on how do you work best. And then you get into, okay, what do we need to support there? What barriers do we need to remove? What supports do we need to put in place that may or may not be related to flexibility, but it is starting from that focus point because that's what matters to the business, and that is how that they you know, you as a leader and all of you as a team can keep up your contribution that you have committed to the business.
Tara Schwegler:
Well and I I'm so glad that you emphasized that, Teri, because my my purpose in emphasizing the fact that that we need to change some of our assumptions about work is to make us more productive and to make employees more satisfied. It's not about you know, there There are certain things that can't be changed, and I don't and it's not being flexible for the sake of of flexibility. It's finding ways for people to be the best employees they can be. And sometimes it's just really simple little changes Mhmm. That could make a big difference. And I talked to a lot of companies that are really focused, Especially now in this atmosphere where there's some hesitation by some employees to return to office, and companies are looking at different ways to bring them in. And my advice to to senior leaders would be maybe I mean, all that other stuff that's that's fantastic, And it's great to be focused on this, but there could be some really small changes, like tweaks that you could make here and there that would have an enormous impact.
Teri Schmidt:
Yeah. And and if we could focus on that, it would be so much easier and so much more impactful than having, you know, different incentives, which again, I've I've heard of incentives that are great, like making a donation to, you know, the person's favorite organization, which I'm all for, but that's not going to hit the mark in terms of keeping that employee engaged and getting the productivity that you're seeking out of them.
Tara Schwegler:
It's it comes down to I think what this would show too is respect. It would be a way for employers to let workers be seen and say, hey. We we respect that that you can be a good judge of when you're most productive and how you're most productive. And, of course, there might be situations where employees are not performing where they should be. And in those cases, adjustments would have to be made. So this is not a a, you know, just let everybody do whatever they want and, you know, hope for the best. This is no. You can relax some of these rigid assumptions a bit and see what happens.
Teri Schmidt:
Sure. This has been an excellent conversation, and and like I said, I'd love to have you on again sometime in the keep up to date with your work. Where is the best place for them to go?
Tara Schwegler:
Great. So I my website, www.tarishwegler.com, Has a lot of posts in relation to this work and talks about the work that I do with different companies, and they can also follow me on LinkedIn Where I have a pretty active presence, and I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and a little bit of TikTok.
Teri Schmidt:
Well, you're you're all the places. I wanna see the TikTok.
Tara Schwegler:
I know. The TikTok, I I'm I'm I'm I'm a novice at TikTok, but I I have. It's it's interesting. I work with a lot of students, so I teach, and they've been telling
Teri Schmidt:
me that's where you
Tara Schwegler:
should be. You need to get on TikTok. And so
Teri Schmidt:
It's good to good to listen. Well, we'll make sure that all those links get in the show notes so it's easy for people to fine, but thank you again for coming on. Thank you for the work that you do, and I look forward to keeping connected and seeing that book come out sometime soon.
Tara Schwegler:
Oh, well, thank you so much, Teri. This conversation has been so thrilling and just enlightening for me too. So thank you for your high quality content and for your Just wonderful commitment.