192. Beyond Recognition: The Power of Mattering at Work with Zach Mercurio

What does it really mean to be recognized at work—and how can leaders create environments where everyone truly feels seen and valued?

In this episode, Dr. Zach Mercurio joins Teri Schmidt to go beyond surface-level recognition programs and dig into the deeper concept of mattering. Drawing from his research, Zach shares why small, daily interactions have a greater impact on performance and well-being than perks or bonuses. Listeners will hear practical examples, learn how technology and culture may be eroding essential human skills, and discover actionable steps to help every team member know they matter, even in tough environments.

• True recognition isn’t about awards or perks: leaders make the biggest impact through daily interactions that help others feel seen, heard, and valued.

• The foundational experience of “mattering” underpins motivation, engagement, and performance; without it, people and organizations struggle to thrive.

• Developing and practicing the ability to notice, affirm, and show others they are needed (the NAN model) is a measurable, vital leadership skill.

• Leaders don’t need anyone’s permission to create “microclimates” of mattering, even within challenging or toxic workplaces; these small cultures ripple outward.

• Human connection and genuine care can’t be replaced by technology—building trust and psychological safety are critical, especially as AI becomes more present in the workplace. 

Resources:

• Zach's website (with free resources, including a self-assessment)

• Connect with Zach on LinkedIn

About Zach:

Zach Mercurio is an author, researcher, and leadership development facilitator specializing in purposeful leadership,

mattering, and meaningful work. He advises leaders in organizations worldwide on practices for building cultures that

promote well-being, motivation, and performance.

Zach holds a Ph.D. in organizational learning, performance, and change and serves as one of Simon Sinek’s Optimist Instructors, teaching a top-rated course on creating mattering at work. His new book is The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance. His previous book is The Invisible

Leader: Transform Your Life, Work, and Organization with The Power of Authentic Purpose.”

He’s been featured in The Harvard Business Review, Forbes,

Psychology Today, The Denver Post, and on ABC News.

Transcript

While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.

Teri Schmidt [00:00:01]:

You've probably heard that as a leader, it's very important to recognize your team if you want them to perform. But what does it really mean to recognize someone at work? Is it the award? The bonus? The employee of the month plaque on the wall? Or is it something much smaller, yet far more powerful? Today we're going beneath the buzzword of recognition with Dr. Zach Mercurio. Zach is an author, researcher and leadership development facilitator who specializes in purposeful leadership, mattering and meaningful work. He advises leaders worldwide on how to build cultures that foster well being, motivation and performance. He holds a PhD in Organizational Learning, performance and change, and he also serves as one of Simon Sinek's optimist instructors, teaching a top rated course on creating mattering at work. Zach's latest book, the Power of How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance, explores why recognition often misses the mark and what leaders can do instead to help people feel truly seen, valued and needed. This conversation will challenge you to rethink recognition and see it not as a program or a perk, but as a daily practice of creating moments where people genuinely know they matter.

Teri Schmidt [00:01:27]:

If you haven't met me yet, I'm Teri Schmidt, executive and leadership coach at Strong Leaders Serve, where we believe leadership is about courageously using your strengths to make a way for others to courageously use theirs. And this is the Strong Leaders Serve podcast.

Teri Schmidt [00:01:53]:

Hi Zach, welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. I'm honored to have you on today and have this time for a conversation.

Zach Mercurio [00:02:07]:

Yeah, thanks Teri. Glad to be here.

Teri Schmidt [00:02:10]:

Well, for anyone who isn't familiar with you, I would love for you to just tell us a little bit about your story and how you came to be focused on mattering in particular.

Zach Mercurio [00:02:22]:

Well, So I have two jobs, I guess. One is I spend about 30% of my time teaching and researching as a senior fellow in a place called the center for Meaning and Purpose. And we study what makes life and work meaningful, what contributes to human flourishing and work, of which part of that research we found is that it's really hard for anything to matter in life and work if one does not feel that they matter. That search for significance seems to be the core driver of almost all human behavior. And the rest of my time is I'm out with leaders in a variety of industries helping people to turn this common sense idea that people should feel valued and that they should know how they add value into common practices and being able to name hard skills that we can rigorously develop to do those things. And I came to this because When I was a PhD student about seven or eight years ago, I was struggling with a research interest. And I remember I used to be in academic buildings a lot, and one of the groups of people that I worked with and passed often were the custodians, the janitors, the cleaners. And, you know, I just come to know them.

Zach Mercurio [00:03:35]:

Even without knowing their names, I'd just come to know them. We. We'd have this relationship. And I remember I was going to a professional development session at the university, and it was a free session open to everybody on leadership development. And I remember passing one of the custodians that I'd seen there regularly, and she said, what are you doing today? And I said, oh, I'm going to this session. This. This free session. She said, how did.

Zach Mercurio [00:03:55]:

How did you hear about that? And she was all excited. And she goes, I said, oh, I got an email. And she. She looked deflated, and she said that she'd been there for over 10 years and no one's ever shown her how to get her email up and running. And it was. It was at that moment where sort of my research interest found me. I was like, wow, how? These are the people that make everything run. I mean, these are the people that we wouldn't be able to do anything without our facilities being clean, and yet it seems that they are treated the worst.

Zach Mercurio [00:04:31]:

And so I actually went and studied a group of janitors in my first study for a year and a half, and we came to understand what made work meaningful. And what was really interesting about that study is no one talked about that. They felt that they and their work was meaningful when they got more money, when they got an employee of the month award. In fact, one of the people in that study said, don't give me a free sandwich and a certificate. Remember, remember my name tomorrow and say thank you. What we found is that it was very small moments, what we've come to call moments of mattering. Moments where people felt seen, heard, valued, and needed by people in very, almost everyday, routine interactions that really contributed to a sense of whether someone thrived or whether they didn't. And since that study, for the past five years, we've studied thousands of people.

Zach Mercurio [00:05:27]:

And in terms of what helps people feel that they matter in work. And again, it's not the big actions, it's not the pay, it's not the flexibility, it's not the remote work policy, it's not DEI programs, wellbeing programs. It's what they experience in interactions every day. And that's what we've been doing ever since, really trying to name the skills and practices that contribute to creating and replicating these moments of mattering.

Teri Schmidt [00:05:54]:

It's I think in one way as a leader, freeing in that it, you know, doesn't have to be this grand program that you have a huge project plan for its implementation or its execution. But on the other side, I feel like it's almost like, okay, well this is so common sense, so why isn't it happening? Or you know, how, how, what is keeping me from doing that? And so yeah, I'm curious as you brought this to leaders and I love that you give specific hard practices and skills both in the book and through your work. But as you bring this to leaders, what has been the reaction to it?

Zach Mercurio [00:06:43]:

Yeah, so the, the, the driving force behind all of this is the psychological concept of mattering, which is the experience of feeling significant to those around us. That comes from feeling valued and knowing how we add value. And it's our primal human instinct and it drives all motivation and all human behavior. To do anything today, you had to believe at some level that you matter, that your life is worthy of your energy. And when we feel that we matter to other people, we develop that same level of energy. But what is going on now is there's, there's two things. One is that it's very hard to imagine that small interactions on a daily basis in isolation actually add up to these big outcomes. We are like an instant gratification culture.

Zach Mercurio [00:07:33]:

We want a program, a platform, a solution, integrated solution, whatever, an acronym to throw at these big problems. But if you look at employee engagement, for example, Gallup has been measuring employee engagement for 20 years. In January 2025, it was at its lowest rate in a decade. This is despite DEI programs, well being programs. This is despite the employee engagement services industry, meaning consultants helping you improve your employee engagement, becoming a $1 billion industry. And yet we're more disengaged than ever. Perks have gone up. Pay has actually increased almost 45% in eight years even though we're under inflation.

Zach Mercurio [00:08:15]:

Wages, perks, programs, engagements, the lowest it's been. Why? Two data points. Just 39% of a sample of 15,000 people in various industries strongly agreed that someone at work cared for them as a person. Is. That's the lowest that's ever been. Just 30% of people in that sample strongly agreed that someone saw and invested in their unique potential. That's the lowest that's ever been work. Human did a study the year before and found that 30% of people feel Quote, unquote invisible in work or flat out ignored.

Zach Mercurio [00:08:51]:

And almost 65% of people, according to the American Psychological association, feel perpetually underappreciated in work. So those things cannot be solved in programs. They have to be solved through interactions. And one of the things that's happened is that we've lost the skills over the last 25 years to show the people around us that we care for them. And one of the chief reasons why is that we've been able to use technology to evade the social situations in which we would normally develop these skills to see here, value other people. And this is something that's not talked about as much. But for example, when you, if you share with me a struggle you're having on a project and I have access to Slack and I can just say like thumbs down emoji, I'm sorry to hear that. Let's catch up next week.

Zach Mercurio [00:09:42]:

And I don't have to in that moment sit with you and seek understanding and show empathy and give an act of compassion. Every time I don't have to do that, I miss out on the social learning that helps me develop that skill. And so imagine now, we've all had 25 years of sending an average of 30 to 40 text based messages to colleagues a day. We've been able to get out of these social situations. And you add on top of that that we've been calling these skills soft for the last half century. And whenever we call something as soft or simple, we're susceptible to an overconfidence bias and we think we're better at it than we are. And here we are in a time where we need these skills the most. And finally, people are being able to name what they've been experiencing is that they don't feel seen, they don't feel heard, they don't feel valued in interactions.

Zach Mercurio [00:10:37]:

So here we are. And you're right, it is hopeful and it's good news actually, because you don't need anybody's permission to show up in your next interaction and choose to learn, develop and activate the skills to see, hear and value the next person you interact with.

Teri Schmidt [00:10:52]:

Yeah, so true. And I know you focus specifically on the NAN model or the NAN model in your book. You, you go into great depth in that. Can you tell us a little bit about that and maybe even a story of, of how that is implemented from a leadership perspective?

Zach Mercurio [00:11:13]:

Yeah, sure. I'll go back to the first story I write about because it's a story that really shaped how I thought about these moments. And there Was a custodian. Her name was Jane, and she was near homelessness and she needed a job to put food on the table. Again, there's two things about work. There's the meaning of work for people, which people may work for a paycheck, but then there's the meaning in work for people, which is what they want to experience while they're there. Time after time. We find that what people experience while they're working matters much more than why they work.

Zach Mercurio [00:11:50]:

When it comes to their fulfillment and well being. And when leaders create an experience that people see the meaning in their work and feel that they matter, it can be life changing. So Jane got this job. She was grumbling about it her first couple of months. She said she was just saying, you know, why couldn't I have done something more with my life? Her friends were kind of ribbing on her a little bit about being a custodian. She had these really destructive internal narratives. And a supervisor noticed these subtle cues that she was struggling. She never told him, but noticed.

Zach Mercurio [00:12:22]:

And he said, hey, can we talk? And he brought her into a break room. And she told me that he gave her a dictionary and he opened it to the word custodian and he had her read the definition of custodian aloud. And the definition was a person responsible for a building and everyone in it. And he said, I want you to look around at this dormitory that you're cleaning at this university. And every one of these, these students is someone's precious child. And I don't, I don't care why you're working, why you got here. This is why your job exists and why you exist. Every one of those people need, needs you.

Zach Mercurio [00:12:58]:

And she said it was the first time in her life someone showed her she was worthy and went on to change her belief systems about herself. She went on to be one of the most sought after janitors at the university and was there for almost 30 years. I asked her, I said, did you ever tell that supervisor? She goes, no, I forgot his name. He got reassigned three months later. But what happens in these moments and how this works is that when somebody notices us, so season hears us, that supervisor noticed her, noticed that she was struggling. A subtle cue. But then he took action to show or that she was noticed. When people affirm us, when they show us how our uniqueness makes a unique difference, and when people show us how we are needed, how someone else relies on us, we tend to experience mattering.

Zach Mercurio [00:13:46]:

And when we experience those things, we get two self beliefs that are important. The belief that I'm worthy and the belief that I'm capable, which Jane's story exemplifies. And when we believe that we're worthy and capable, we develop the confidence we need to add value. And this is where I think many leaders get it wrong. A lot of leaders think people should be valued once they add value. But psychologically, the opposite is true. People need to feel valued in order to add value. And the more they add value, the more they see how they're needed, the more they feel valued.

Zach Mercurio [00:14:18]:

But we've asked thousands of people this question. When you most feel that you matter to a leader, what is going on? And those three things that Jane's supervisor did come up often. They see and hear me. I feel noticed. They see my unique gifts, and they show me the difference that I make. I feel affirmed. And they show me how I'm needed, that I'm relied on. And we've also actually uncovered and been able to name 25 unique skills to do all of those things.

Teri Schmidt [00:14:43]:

Yeah, I think I just recently saw you post those on LinkedIn as well.

Zach Mercurio [00:14:47]:

Yes, I posted it because someone. I got all these messages from people that were reading about mattering, and they were like, can you. Can you actually list these out? Like you say, they're these skills? So I actually reread my book and then this research paper that we're currently drafting right now, and I mined out with a colleague, like the 25 unique skills. And I say in it, all leaders should be able to. Because I do believe that it's the minimum qualification of leadership to make sure people feel valued.

Teri Schmidt [00:15:18]:

Which we can definitely get into that in. In a little bit, because I. I know as we talked before we hit record, maybe not everyone would agree with you that that is the minimum qualification of a leader or what should define a leader's success. But I do want to kind of take a turn here because I also saw you post about AI, and you said you were talking. You said our moral responsibility to one another cannot be replaced, which is why the ability to build and sustain trust will be more critical than ever. That's another reason why leaders and organizations must double down on the essential skills of being human. So I'd love to hear what was behind that. You wrote that, unless AI wrote it.

Zach Mercurio [00:16:04]:

But I doubt that you should only be afraid of AI taking your job if you don't have the human skills to show people they matter. Because AI is going to take over your technical and operational and synthesizing skills. It's going to do it Faster, it's going to do it more accurately just because it has more information than our brains can compute in real time. What it can never do, it can do your tasks. What it can never do is take moral responsibility for them. So while an AI for example, could guide a customer through a transaction, a person has to develop the trust to take responsibility for that transaction with that customer, for example. And where does trust come from? There are four predictors of trust, researchers find. One is care.

Zach Mercurio [00:16:55]:

You cannot develop trust if you do not care for somebody. I was working with the top 200 leaders in the US army and there was a special operations officer who's responsible for part of the officer training for special ops officers. Now these are like the highest performing units on the planet. So if there's a leader out there who disagrees that mattering doesn't result in performance. This is one of the top performing units behind enemy lines in lethal situations have to act fast, act decisively and they have to perform or their lives are at risk and others lives are at risk. And he said to me, no, he said, you know Zach, a lot of people say that the key ingredient or think that a key ingredient of a lethal high performing unit behind enemy lines is toughness. He said, but it's not, it's love. No one is going to sacrifice for me if I don't know their kids names.

Zach Mercurio [00:17:47]:

No one is going to go above and beyond and support someone else who's in need if I don't support them in need in the months prior to that engagement. No one is going to go above and beyond for me if I haven't gone above and beyond for them. Every day that we're training together and he hit on something really important that you cannot demonstrate, you cannot have trust without care. And the second is consistency. You know, you show up consistently. The third is competence, you're good at your job. And the third, the fourth is safety. You also can't trust someone that you feel psychologically unsafe around.

Zach Mercurio [00:18:25]:

Researchers find that trust is impossible without those bookends. It doesn't matter how good you are at your job, doesn't matter your quarterly earnings reports, doesn't matter your how great your product launches are. If you don't demonstrate care for somebody and if they feel unsafe with you, they will not trust you. The same is true with a customer. The same is true with anybody else. AI can't do that. So if you don't, if we don't develop redevelop, I would say based on our previous comment, if we don't redevelop these skills to do this, yes, we will be obsolete if we don't double down on the human skills to care and create psychological safety for the people that we interact with and we lose those skills to technology, we will be obsolete. But I'm very thankful because that's not going to happen.

Zach Mercurio [00:19:17]:

And the other thing that I'm thankful about is I love that AI is going to take over all of the things that are wasting leaders time. So they're not focused on their people.

Teri Schmidt [00:19:27]:

And, and what a great example of those military leaders because like you said, if there's a place where high performance is critically important, that that would be it. With, with lives on the line, I.

Zach Mercurio [00:19:41]:

Went to a conference and also the. If you watch this Netflix, this Netflix documentary on the Blue Angels. Angels are this Navy squadron that flies at a ridiculously close to each other at incredibly high speeds in these jets. And I met the commander of it, Commander Armitas, and we were talking about this and he had sat in on this session on mattering and he said, this is what it's all about. This is why we have to live together for six months. It's not so we're spending. The majority of our time is not spent flying together. The majority of time is spent learning about who each other is, what's important to everybody, what their preferences are, what their styles are, learning how, what their values are, what interests them.

Zach Mercurio [00:20:27]:

We spend more time socializing than we do training. And one of the reasons why is because that's what develops care and that trust. Because I am much more likely to maneuver in a way that is careful and calibrated and precise. If I know that the person next to me wants to get back to their family and I know who that family is.

Teri Schmidt [00:20:55]:

And it drives performance, that mattering, you know, knowing that not only are you valued and you add value, but you value that person next to you because you know the value that they add as well.

Zach Mercurio [00:21:11]:

And they have a saying, they have a saying called fail together. You know that if one person fails, the whole group takes that failure on and they fail together. And I think that's where, you know, that's where true confidence comes from. The confidence needed to perform. It doesn't come from telling someone to develop confidence or go perform. True confidence comes when we know that someone has our back. We can try fail, experiment, take risks, and we know someone else has our back. And that's the foundation that mattering creates when you show someone that they matter.

Teri Schmidt [00:21:46]:

There's so many so many different directions we could take this conversation. But I. I just want to, you know, as I want to double down a little bit on the AI piece, because I was thinking about it, and I was like, well, you know, couldn't you, in a chat with an AI, you know, feel that the AI noticed you and could it affirm you and could you feel needed because of a conversation with it? So I'm curious about your thoughts on that and how, you know, what differentiates the human application.

Zach Mercurio [00:22:18]:

The AI doesn't care if you come back. There's no. There's no more powerful experience, I think, in life than knowing that your presence and absence mean something to another person. You're just a prompt to the AI. You're an input. It can't. You're not a human. You're not a.

Zach Mercurio [00:22:34]:

You're not a. You're not a human being. Because it doesn't know what it's like to be a human being. No matter how comforting your AI may be to you, it doesn't care if you come back.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:44]:

People.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:44]:

So in a sense, it's just empty words.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:47]:

Yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:22:47]:

People care.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:49]:

Yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:50]:

Which makes me think. I mean, if you are a leader.

Zach Mercurio [00:22:53]:

Like a symbol of care, I would say it's symbolizing care.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:58]:

Right, right. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:59]:

And so that. That kind of reiterates the point, too, that if you are a leader and you are trying to implement, you know, noticing, affirming, and needing, there has to be that care behind it. It can't just be you going through the motions.

Zach Mercurio [00:23:13]:

Right. And you know what's really great about AI, though? If you want to, like, for example, say you have an employee who's struggling. Like, I would love to see leaders use AI to say, I have an employee who's struggling with this. This. What's the. What are some. The best ways to approach this conversation? And that. That is a really interesting way of using AI synthesizing.

Zach Mercurio [00:23:31]:

And I would say, like, what does the research say is the best way to approach this conversation? And that'll. That's. That's really helpful because what you're doing is you're working on the craft of leadership, you know, and instead of just going and reading the talking points that you get from ChatGPT, go. And now you're armed with some knowledge, like you're learning about what it means to take care of people. You know, you mentioned earlier that some leaders would disagree that, you know, that's the minimum qualification for leadership. I don't think they're talking about leadership. I mean, leadership is the occupation of being responsible for the people doing the job. I mean, your job is to care for the people.

Teri Schmidt [00:24:12]:

Well, you know my initial thoughts on this book, part of it, you know, I thought maybe in our individualistic culture, like some people might take it as, yes, I need to know that I matter and this is why my leader should do this. X, Y and Z. But you bring up many points about the importance of community when it comes to mattering. You even talk about, you know, how the higher levels of Maslow's pyramid are all dependent on others. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. You know, why can't we self affirm ourselves into a sense of mattering?

Zach Mercurio [00:24:49]:

Any belief that you have requires your environment to confirm that belief for you to have that belief. So like I'm sitting on a chair right now. The only reason why I come into my office and I sit down without really thinking about it is because I believe the chair will hold me and it's for sitting on, it's not going to break. Now what's the only reason why I know and believe that the chair won't break? The only reason why is because I've sat in it time and time again and it hasn't broken. The same is true with any belief. That's why you can't just sit in your office and say, I believe in myself and I am enough and develop confidence. You have to go out and see the evidence of your significance to believe in your significance. In psychology it's called reflected appraisals.

Zach Mercurio [00:25:36]:

It's how we come to experience ourself. You wouldn't even have the language to say that you don't need others to show you how you matter if you didn't have others to show you how to learn language.

Teri Schmidt [00:25:53]:

Good point, good point.

Zach Mercurio [00:25:55]:

You wouldn't actually be here like the people who say I am enough. Like I love the sentiment about that. But scientifically it's wrong because you wouldn't be here if at some point you hadn't mattered enough to someone else to keep you alive. So none of us are truly enough. We are social beings, we are interdependent beings. We are interdependent psychologically, sociologically, biologically. We become who we are with others. And so you can't.

Zach Mercurio [00:26:24]:

So you can come to believe that you matter on your own, but it takes others to show us how we matter.

Teri Schmidt [00:26:31]:

Ah, interesting distinction.

Zach Mercurio [00:26:33]:

And here's the dynamic is that you are that other for someone else. And it happens in interactions. So if you spend all of your time trying to Believe that you matter and expecting everybody to show you that you matter, which a lot of our self help world tells you to do. You know, focus on yourself, no one's coming to save you. Let them. You know, whatever it is, if you do that and if everybody does that, we won't have anybody to come, we won't have anybody to reaffirm our significance. It's probably why if you look at self help books published and loneliness and mental health issues and I put them on a line graph, you would show them exploding upward together. Because we have been teaching people to actualize themselves, but there's no committee in your brain that's going to tell you you're actualized enough, now go help others.

Zach Mercurio [00:27:26]:

We have to do both at the same time. Develop the belief that we matter so we can act like we matter, contribute to creating mattering for other people. When we contribute to creating mattering for other people, we create relationships that develop an upward spiral and they're more likely to do it for us. We see the evidence of our significance and that's how we develop a stable belief. That's where stable self esteem comes from. When we believe that we matter and we're in environments that show us how we matter, a well individual in an unwell relationship will become an unwell individual.

Teri Schmidt [00:27:57]:

Yeah, I, I, I love what you just said. And you know, I was thinking, I, I often talk about, you know, people say put your own oxygen mask on first so that you can help others, which is important. But I always say, you know, we, our leadership model is ground, grow, give. So it always, and I say it's an upward spiral and you're going through those, you know, multiple times. But the point is that give phase is there. It's not put my own oxygen mask on and that's the end of the sentence. It's so that you can support others.

Zach Mercurio [00:28:33]:

The oxygen mask example is really interesting because you're literally putting on the oxygen mask so you don't die. True. Right. So that you're alive so you can help someone else. Yeah, most, most of us are alive so we can help someone else. Right. So the oxygen thing is funny and it takes about a second to slap the mo oxygen mask on and then you better, you better get to helping the person next to you.

Teri Schmidt [00:29:00]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, excellent point.

Teri Schmidt [00:29:03]:

You know, I, I'm, I'm thinking about your conversation about the environments and you know, an unwell, a well person in an unwell relationship eventually becomes unwell. And I think about the story you brought up about Viktor Frankl Yes. And, you know, during his time in the concentration camp, I'm curious about how his sense of mattering continued in that extreme environment, because I'm wondering, you know, there are a lot of leaders and employees out there who may be in an environment that isn't showing them that they matter, and you. They may feel like because of that, they can't show people, you know, act in a way that helps others to matter. So I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Zach Mercurio [00:29:52]:

Yeah, I. First, I have to say that I am in no way drawing an analogy between what Frankl went through and work Right. In an office.

Teri Schmidt [00:30:03]:

Of course, of course.

Zach Mercurio [00:30:05]:

But Frankl himself actually went into vocational guidance using what he learned. He actually went into talking about work and how we find meaning in work. And that was one of his core ways of using his lessons. So I can sort of channel that. But there's a couple of things that are interesting, is that, first of all, you don't need your organization's permission or approval for how you show up in your next interaction. You may not have positional power, but you have interactional power. For example, every single thing was stripped from Viktor Frankl, every shred of external dignity by those in power. But how did he reclaim his power? If you read that book, he reclaimed his power by helping others.

Zach Mercurio [00:30:55]:

He found people to help. He brought extra pieces of bread. He built community. Also, when he talks about, you know, he who has a why to live can bear almost any how. He talks about how he would constantly think about how his wife needed him to get back to her as he was going out into the fields to do that work, he felt needed, and he showed others that they mattered by serving them. He regularly took the opportunity to add value. Lawrence Gonzalez is an author, and he wrote this book called Deep Survival, and he actually studied people in survival situations, and he was trying to understand the people that survived. Like this is like being lost in the woods or like being stranded on a mountaintop.

Zach Mercurio [00:31:39]:

He tried to study what. What contributed to the people that survived and the people that didn't. And what he found was actually it had nothing to do with physical ability. It had to do with people thought about who they needed to get home to.

Teri Schmidt [00:31:53]:

Hmm. Hmm.

Zach Mercurio [00:31:55]:

People thought, oh, I have some unfinished business. I can't. This person can't go on without me. You know, they felt that they mattered. And so, you know, one of the things that we found that people do to develop a mindset that helps them see how they matter to others so that they can act like they matter. To others is they develop what I call a. So that mindset. One of the custodians in our study, I asked her, you know, what's the most meaningful part of your job? She said, it was cleaning the bathrooms in the university dormitories on the after the weekends.

Zach Mercurio [00:32:25]:

And again, I was a PhD student, so I was like shocked. I was, what? What? That sounds gross. And she goes, yeah, it's part of my job I hate the most. But every time I go into that bathroom, I say to myself, I'm cleaning this bathroom so that these kids don't get sick. What's purposeful isn't always pleasurable. You know, I'm a dad of two kids. Staying up all night with a kid with a stomach bug is not pleasurable. It is per.

Zach Mercurio [00:32:52]:

It is purposeful. It is purposeful, right? And I think that one of the things that we've tried to find. We expect pleasure from work all the time. We expect other to give us pleasure. We expect everything to be easy. But oftentimes what's purposeful is not always pleasurable. So making the choice of showing, remembering you're so that of showing up in your next interaction and showing someone how they matter. Making the choice to go first.

Zach Mercurio [00:33:18]:

If your leader is not doing this for you, are you doing it for them? And true leaders, I'm not talking about positional leaders. I think true leaders go first even when it's not being done to them. And gosh, how hard is that to say? How hard is that to think about people listening like, what are you talking about? I'm in this toxic workplace. I'm not going to self sacrifice for others. That's also the burden and responsibility of leadership.

Teri Schmidt [00:33:45]:

Yeah, that going first. And what do you do then if you are going first and you don't feel like anything's changing?

Zach Mercurio [00:33:55]:

At least you know that you did your best. At least you have that. At least you're not being a passive recipient of culture and you're being an active constructor of it. I'm in, I'm in Colorado. It gets, it's really dry here. Like it's not conducive to having gardens, but we all want a garden. It's just having a garden, right? But what I've learned is like while I'm in like this semi arid environment, I have to create microclimates, tomatoes to grow well, Like I have to like create a microclimate for it. It thinks it's in a different climate.

Zach Mercurio [00:34:29]:

I think great leaders, especially in toxic organizations are really good at creating Microclimates. Microclimates, where people feel that they matter. And where does that come from? It comes from your daily interactions. No one can take your interactional power away from. You need anybody's permission. There's no red tape to caring.

Teri Schmidt [00:34:47]:

Right. Right. Yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:34:49]:

And. And you know what I find is when leaders do choose to do this, they actually feel better. They may be in a toxic environment, but they can go home knowing that the people they serve aren't going home to the people that love them. Complaining about them.

Teri Schmidt [00:35:03]:

Yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:35:03]:

And how they've made their life. They can go home and say, you know, I'm in this organization. My job's really tough, but my leader, she. He. She has my back, and that's what keeps me going. And then they tell that to somebody, and they tell that to their child and their child and they remember. And you. You cascade a leadership lesson by doing that.

Zach Mercurio [00:35:24]:

That's your legacy.

Teri Schmidt [00:35:25]:

Right? Right. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:35:27]:

Creating that microclimate. So in that micro climate, how do you apply these principles with an employee who's not performing?

Zach Mercurio [00:35:38]:

One of the misconceptions people do ask me, Zach, how do I. How do I show people they matter when I need them to improve their performance, which is a real thing. Nobody. We wouldn't have jobs or organizations if we didn't meet the numbers, whatever the numbers are. Right. But what's missed is that you show people they matter so that they perform well. You show people that they matter so that you can hold them accountable. What typically happens is people, especially leaders, I find they critique before they actually do the work to care.

Zach Mercurio [00:36:09]:

There's a study in Harvard Business Review that studied thousands of incidents, incidences of employee performance, improving feedback, and they found that about 40% of those instances actually decreased performance. And the same thing with negative critique on its own, decreased performance. The reason why is not because the employees are weak and they can't handle it. The reason why is that researchers found the employees didn't feel understood or heard or seen by the person giving the feedback. Think about the last time something someone said mattered to you when you didn't feel that you mattered to them. Right. So a lot of leaders don't understand that the performance, improving feedback, conversation, the quality of that conversation actually happens months, years before the actual conversation where you're building that trust through care and through creating a sense of safety. There was a.

Zach Mercurio [00:37:07]:

There's a psychologist named David Yeager, and he finds that people are much more likely, almost four times more likely to improve their performance if you do these three things whenever you Give critique. If these three things are present. First is whenever you're going to critique someone's performance or give this type of performance, improving feedback, express your belief in the person. I believe in you, and I believe in the impact you can make here. Second is name the unique strengths and gifts they already have. I really rely on you. You're always consistent. You're always showing up.

Zach Mercurio [00:37:39]:

You're always asking questions. You're always resourceful. I need you to. You can use those to improve in this area. And then the third is express your support. Specific support. And I'm here to help. And every Tuesday morning, I just want to check in with you on if there's any log jams that I can remove to help you perform better.

Teri Schmidt [00:37:57]:

Yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:37:58]:

And if those three things are present, people are much more likely to improve their performance. Why? Because the environment expresses their belief in them, shows them the evidence that they're worthy and capable of performing. They have what it takes, and someone has their back. But too often, we slap someone on a performance improvement plan or delegate human development to HR and we don't do the work to make sure people feel cared for.

Teri Schmidt [00:38:25]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:38:29]:

That was excellent answer. With just, you know, very practical steps that people can take and misconceptions that are behind that.

Zach Mercurio [00:38:39]:

Yeah. It's just I see so many. And I. And you know what? I also, I'm gonna add this because I think this is important discussion. A lot of leaders simply give up on people too fast. I get a lot of people that come up to me in a workshop and they'll say, oh, you know, it's just this person. They'll never change. They've been underperforming.

Zach Mercurio [00:38:57]:

No matter what I do, I try all this stuff and nothing happens. And I say, well, how long has it been? They're like seven months. Seven months of a human life. Right. To develop, to change in behavior. Right. And so my, my, my response is always, well, are you offloading that person? Have you decided that person's not a fit? Are you gonna. Are you going to see if they want to be reassigned or are you going to, you know, off board them, fire them?

Teri Schmidt [00:39:26]:

Yeah, yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:39:28]:

And if they say no? I say, okay, well, they're under your care, so you have to care. You can't give up. If they're under your care, they're under your care. You cannot give up. And that's the responsibility of leadership. And over time, that person's performance is your responsibility. If someone's perpetually underperforming, if a leader's occupation is to take care of the people doing the job. And one of your people is perpetually underperforming.

Zach Mercurio [00:39:57]:

If you've kept them under your care, then that's a job performance issue of the leader as.

Teri Schmidt [00:40:04]:

Yeah, you gotta care before the perform. You don't care because people perform.

Zach Mercurio [00:40:09]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And it's true. It's psychologically true. Well.

Teri Schmidt [00:40:18]:

So last question. What about those, like, I referenced earlier, who are like, you know, this, this doesn't matter because shouldn't work. Just be more like a sports team. I think, to use your language before we hit record in our kind of. Of the, you know, strongman mindset of, you know, only the fittest should survive.

Zach Mercurio [00:40:39]:

Yeah, there's this. There's this whole notion that, you know, I agree with it, that work is not a fan, work is not family. Right. We shouldn't conflate the two. But I also think that everybody at work is part of a family. Right. We shouldn't be friends with people at work. Well, everybody at work is someone's friend.

Zach Mercurio [00:41:02]:

And oftentimes we use this whole notion of it's just work as an excuse to make it easier to dehumanize people. It's easier to make a lot of money quicker and dehumanize people if you treat them like a replaceable resource. But in the long term, when people feel replaceable, they usually act that way and they leave and they don't show up and they don't commit. And then every eight years, you have a labor crisis. When the market loosens up and it's more favorable to employers, they leave. Right. And so the other idea is thinking about organization as an elite sports team. And I think it's a.

Zach Mercurio [00:41:38]:

It's a really bad example because. Because the percentage of people that are elite athletes is like, less than, like, 1% of the world's population. Okay? We're talking about people who are gifting you their time and their skills. That's why it's called compensation. For example, you're compensating someone for their lost time and skills. You're making up for the time you're taking from somebody the gifts they're giving you. So most people aren't elite athletes. So organizations have to be a place where people can develop, where they are developing people's sense of self worth, ability.

Zach Mercurio [00:42:15]:

They're training grounds for these essential skills people need to have. And if you're going to expect people to perform at a high level, but you're not creating an environment that regenerates their energy to perform. Through making sure they feel that they matter, you are really creating a recipe for despair.

Teri Schmidt [00:42:35]:

Yeah.

Zach Mercurio [00:42:36]:

There's nothing more frustrating than being asked to perform at a high level, than being in an environment that extracts the energy you need to perform.

Teri Schmidt [00:42:46]:

Yeah, yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:42:48]:

So true.

Zach Mercurio [00:42:48]:

And also I'm going to add this. If you look at the best sports teams there is a. One of the commonalities is this idea of, of just do your job. Right. But it's not, it's not as like, hard as it seems. Do your job means you are an integral part of the whole and what you do affects someone else. So actually when you look at high performing sports teams, they do a great job of making sure people feel that they matter first. If you want to use that example.

Teri Schmidt [00:43:14]:

Yeah, that. Yeah.

Teri Schmidt [00:43:16]:

You can't really deny that. You know, it might not be evident, but when you look at it a little bit longer, it's. It's right there. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. There are so many pieces that I want to just replay for myself and dig more deeply into. But I really appreciate your time today. If people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where's the best place for them to go?

Zach Mercurio [00:43:37]:

Yeah, you can go to ZachMercurio.com there's also a section there on mattering and there's some free downloads, like a self assessment. There's also. We didn't get into like some of the specific skills, but there's some templates on like how to give better gratitude to people, how to give better feedback, how to show people that you rely on them. And it's again, it's simple, small actions that you can take in your next interaction. So check that out.

Teri Schmidt [00:44:01]:

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Teri Schmidt [00:44:03]:

We'll make sure that gets linked in the show notes. And of course, we just got right on the surface of what's in the book. So I highly encourage everyone to, to go out and at a minimum get the book and, and listen to it. It's so important for all of us. We spend so much time of our lives at work and it flows into all other areas of our lives. So highly recommend everyone getting out there and getting this book. So thank you again, Zach.

Zach Mercurio [00:44:30]:

Thank you, Teri. Thanks for having me on.

Teri Schmidt [00:44:34]:

As we wrap up, I keep coming back to Zach's reminder that even in tough environments, leaders have the power to create microclimates, small pockets where people feel seen, valued and needed. Those microclimates don't just stay contained they ripple outward into teams, families, and communities. So here's my challenge to you. In your very next interaction, choose to show someone that they matter. Notice them, affirm them. Remind them that they are needed. It may feel small, but as Zach reminded us, those small moments add up to cultures of significance. Because leadership isn't about waiting for the person perfect program or policy.

Teri Schmidt [00:45:22]:

It's about the everyday choices we make to help people thrive.