190. Making Work Meaningful to Motivate Your Team with Tamara Myles and Wes Adams

Welcome to a new season of Strong Leaders Serve!

In this kickoff episode, Tamara Myles and Wes Adams—co-authors of Meaningful Work—join me to unpack what actually drives motivation and performance. 

We dig into their research-backed framework, the Three Cs (community, contribution, and challenge), and explore the powerful concept of balanced autonomy—a practical way leaders can support growth without micromanaging, even in our ever evolving work environment.

Resources:

• Tamara and Wes's website: https://www.makeworkmeaningful.com

• Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamaramyles

• Connect with Wes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesadams1

About Wes:

Wes Adams is the CEO of SV Consulting Group. He partners with Fortune 500s and scaling companies to develop high-impact leaders and design operating structures that support high performing teams. He is also a positive psychology researcher at the University of Pennsylvania where he studies the leadership practices and organizational structures that help employees thrive. He lives in Atlanta, GA.

About Tamara:

Tamara Myles is a speaker, author, professor, and entrepreneur specializing in the science of human flourishing at work. She helps leaders and organizations like Microsoft, KPMG, and MassMutual unlock the power of meaningful work to drive peak performance, innovation, and resilience. A faculty member at Boston College and a researcher and instructor at the University of Pennsylvania, Tamara’s work challenges assumptions about work, showing that when leaders make work meaningful, they create thriving teams and lasting impact. She lives in Concord, Massachusetts.

Transcript

While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.

Teri Schmidt [00:00:02]: Hey there. Welcome back. I hope you've had a great summer if you're in the Northern Hemisphere. I know I have had a wonderful trip with my family out to Northern Idaho. Got to enjoy some time together and I'm happy to be back with you here today for another season of Strong Leaders Serve. But I do have a confession to make. I've been getting a little bit tired of reading posts on LinkedIn that talk about leading with empathy or creating psychological safety or giving people autonomy. I know it's pretty surprising that I would say I would be tired of reading posts like that. Teri Schmidt [00:00:38]: After all, I wholeheartedly believe that it is good advice, it is important advice. But if it's everywhere on LinkedIn, why hasn't our work culture changed more? That's what frustrates me a bit. You see, the fact is we don't need more leadership buzzwords. We need to talk about the deeper shifts within the leader that make those ideas actionable. The mindset changes, the self awareness, the emotional regulation that turns theory into real sustainable leadership. So welcome to a new season of Strong Leaders Serve. If you don't know me already, I'm Terri Schmidt. I'm an executive and leadership coach. Teri Schmidt [00:01:19]: And this season we're going to go beneath the buzzwords. We'll look past surface level advice and into the real work of leadership. The kind that transforms how you show up, not just what you say. And I can't think of a better place to start than today's conversation. I'm joined by repeat guest Tamara Miles and her co author Wes Adams. They recently put a book into the world titled Meaningful how to Ignite Passion and Performance in Every Employee. As you may know if you Listen to episode 105, Tamara is a speaker, author and researcher who helps leaders create thriving teams through the science of human flourishing. And our conversation together back a couple years ago is one of the episodes that I refer people to the most. Teri Schmidt [00:02:12]: Her co author Wes is a leadership consultant and positive psychology researcher focused on building the conditions for high performing values. Aligned teams and their research and hard won experience shines a light on what truly drives lasting motivation and performance. We'll revisit the three Cs framework that Tamara shared with us the first time she was on the show of community contribution and challenge. And we'll also dig into a topic I found especially relevant in today's workplace balanced autonomy. We'll talk about what that is, why it matters, and how to strike the right balance between clarity and freedom in today's rapidly changing workplace. Our conversation goes Way beyond just surface level tips and tricks. And I hope you enjoy it. So let's dive in. Teri Schmidt [00:03:21]: Well, welcome, Wes and Tamara to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. I should say. Welcome back, Tamara. I know you were on back in January 2023. I can't believe it's been that long. But that episode 105, like I was sharing before we got on is one that I frequently direct people. People back to, to listen. So I'm excited to talk with both of you today. Teri Schmidt [00:03:43]: I know it's an exciting time with the launch of your book Meaningful Work, how to Ignite Passion and Performance in Every Employee. And so I'm excited to dig into just a piece of that because I could talk to you for hours about all the content, but I'm excited to dig into just a piece of it and then of course, encourage all listeners to go out and get a copy and read that book. Cause it is so valuable. So with all that being said, welcome. Thank you for being here today. Tamara Myles [00:04:12]: Thanks so much for having us. Great to be back. Teri Schmidt [00:04:14]: Yeah, well, I'd love to. We're going to do a little bit of review of the three Cs, even though people can go back and listen to more about that in episode 105. But before we dive into that framework of meaningful work, community contribution and challenge, I'd love to hear more about your stories and kind of what drew each of you personally to this topic. So maybe we'll start with Tamara and then would love to hear from Les. Tamara Myles [00:04:45]: So I was drawn to the topic of meaningful work and specifically how leaders can enable more meaning at work because of my fundamental belief that work can provide us with much more than a paycheck. Right. I had spent before going back to school, to graduate school, which is where Wes and I met. I had spent the previous 15 years or so consulting, writing, and speaking about productivity. I had published my first book and I was traveling and speaking about productivity. And I was noticing a virtuous cycle in place. You know, when we have systems in place that help us focus on what truly matters. Right. Tamara Myles [00:05:32]: When we have when we can be more productive, then we have more time and space to focus on meaningful work. And when work feels really meaningful to us, we are much more engaged, motivated, and productive. So I wanted to understand the science behind that cycle. But even more than that, I wanted to understand how leaders can foster that intentionally. So that that is what drew me to that work. Wes Adams [00:06:00]: I feel like I should have gone first. I'm gonna have trouble following that. Yeah, I think so. I, you know, I come from an entrepreneurial background. I, early in my career started and launched a number of companies and, and grew those and after a while moved more into social enterprise and mission driven businesses. And when I did that, I think I naively assumed that because they were mission driven, they were all going to be amazing places to work. Right. And that definitely was not the case for various reasons. Wes Adams [00:06:31]: And at the same time, I was expanding into working globally and working, you know, with people from different cultures and backgrounds and expectations of work. At one point I was leading a team that was on five different continents and that was a huge learning curve for me. And I started getting really interested in organizational psychology and work design and how do you actually deconstruct what it takes to make a great team? And you know, if having a mission isn't enough to make work meaningful, what is? And so that's what took me to grad school, which is where I met Tamara. And yeah, this idea of meaningful work, the thing that drives us, you know, like what, what is it? And you know, is it available in every job or is it just for certain people? You know, and so I think that's what we've been studying for the last number of years. Teri Schmidt [00:07:27]: Yeah, thank you for that. And that is fascinating. I could probably do a whole nother episode on your experiences of having that team on five different continents and how people's definition of work even varies so different. Wes Adams [00:07:40]: It was mind blowing for me. There was somebody in Brazil, which is where Tamara's from, somebody in France, somebody in Australia, somebody in the uk and it was just the expectations and the traditions around, even just how you get paid, paid and vacation time and what it means to show up, how you communicate with each other. We had very different perceptions of those things. So that was fascinating to me. Teri Schmidt [00:08:05]: I can imagine. I can imagine. Please feel free to bring that experience in as we have the conversation today. You know, and your point also about when you're in like social enterprises or nonprofit work, just kind of assuming that meaning would just be there really resonated with me. I know. Tomorrow, you know, a few years before we talked, I had just closed a nonprofit, so I founded and ran a nonprofit for five years and kind of assumed that of course this would be the most meaningful work of my life. And it was. I mean, there definitely I felt like I was making a contribution. Teri Schmidt [00:08:42]: The challenge and the community weren't necessarily there for me. And that's why I think that framework is, you know, was such a light bulb moment for me personally when we spoke last time So I wonder if you know, again, just for anyone who hasn't had an opportunity to hear you on other podcasts or get your book yet and hasn't listened to the past episode that we did, can you just give us a brief introduction into what you found and shared in your book, and particularly around the three Cs? Tamara Myles [00:09:14]: Yeah, we would love to. So we. We've been doing this research, and we're continuing still to do the study, but for the past five and a half, almost about years. And we set out to study the specific leadership practices that foster meaning at work, because that was an understudied facet of meaningful work. And we kind of intuitively assumed and knew that leaders played a big role in our individual experience of meaning. So we wanted to understand how much. And also, you know, how can you intentionally foster that? And what we found is that our 48%. So almost half of our experience of meaning at work comes directly from what our leaders do or fail to do. Tamara Myles [00:10:04]: Right. So it's a huge impact, much greater. That was something that surprised us in the. In the study. The impact is much greater than what we expected. But we also found really specific practices that increase meaning at work. And when we are speaking about these practices as leadership practices, we. We define leadership really broadly. Tamara Myles [00:10:26]: So even if you're not a people leader, you can still lead because you have influence, you know, in your colleagues on how you show up at. In a meeting. And so these practices can still apply to you, but the practices fall under the framework that we call the three Cs of meaningful work, which are community, contribution, and challenge. And I'll let Wes define each one. Wes Adams [00:10:52]: Yeah. So community is the belief that you matter in an organization. It's that sense of belonging, the ability to show up authentically and share your full self and your full ideas with the rest of the group. Contribution is about understanding how your work matters, how it positively impacts either, you know, larger organizational goals, how you're positively impacting customers or clients, or even just benefiting your team. Right. What is the value of your work? And understanding that? And challenge is the individual opportunity to learn and grow. Am I stretching myself? Am I building capabilities? Learning new skills? Am I moving in a direction that matters to me? And what we found was that all three of these things are important. There's kind of a multiplier effect that happens. Wes Adams [00:11:43]: So when they're all present, they build on each other. And a lot of the practices that we'll talk about touch on more than one of those things at a time. And As I think both you and I mentioned earlier, if one of them is missing, it can cancel out the other two. So if you work in a mission driven organization, your contribution is high, but you have no challenge or no community. It can really wipe away whatever meaning was meant to come from, you know, working in that place. And so, you know, as Tamara said, we really have done a lot of empirical research over the last several years to understand specifically what are the practices that increase these things. And then also we are both consultants and we've been working with companies for a number of years implementing these things and measuring those results. So it's been a pretty fun adventure. Teri Schmidt [00:12:34]: Yeah, I bet. And, and that really comes through in the book, I have to, you know, tell you. And I, I think I wrote this in the review of your book, but you can tell that you are out there doing it and you're out there researching it because the practices that you provide in the book for each of these areas aren't just your run of the mill, like things that you could read 500 times on LinkedIn. They are, you know, specific, they are novel in some cases, and they are in many cases fairly easy to implement. It's just having the knowledge that it's important to implement it and having the courage to try new things. And like you said, Tamar, I love that you focused in the book and in your research specifically on what leaders can do as opposed to what the individual employee needs to do in order to make their work meaningful. Tamara Myles [00:13:27]: Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, the, the, the literature on meaningful work before our research was, is, is very heavily focused on what individuals can do. So how can I, you know, increase my own sense of meaning that I derive from my job? And that's of course really important because we all, you know, what's, what's really meaningful to me is not always the same as what's really meaningful to you, Terry, or to Wes. Right. And so the individual factor is really important, but it's not enough and it's both and. Right. So if we're in leaders are 48% together, we can really make a difference. Teri Schmidt [00:14:03]: Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, talking about meaningful work, I know one thing you say in the book that I kind of wanted to clear up. Well, I wanted to highlight so it could be cleared up because you clear it up in the book. But that meaningful work is not the same as purposeful work. And our listeners are all compassionate, driven leaders. So how might these well meaning leaders unintentionally over rely on purpose and neglect the other pillars of community and challenge. Wes Adams [00:14:32]: Yeah, this is a great question, because it's one that we get all the time. And this idea of having a purpose, having a bigger goal is great. Having a calling or work that really has a higher mission is excellent, not required for you to feel a sense of contribution. And we'll talk about that in a minute. But just having a purpose, having a goal doesn't create any meaning. It's seeing progress towards that purpose or goal activates that sense of purpose or creates that meaning. And so even in a mission driven organization, you know, I did work campaigning for LGBTQ rights in a lot of the countries where it's still illegal to be gay, and some where you can be put in prison or even put to death in a couple of them. Right. Wes Adams [00:15:18]: And that was very slow work. Sometimes it took months or years to see any change. And that's very frustrating when you're not seeing any progress towards your purpose or your mission. And so that's a way that, that can sort of fall down. In nonprofits. On the other hand, you know, what we like to say is your job doesn't have to be your life's calling for your work to feel worthwhile. Right. We talk to janitors, hairstylists, software developers who found a huge sense of contribution in their work because either they felt like they were contributing to their colleagues or they were making a difference in the lives of customers or the other people that were around them. Wes Adams [00:16:00]: And so there's a huge opportunity to tap into that source, even if you're not working at a nonprofit or a doctor or whatever, you know, kind of comes to your mind as, you know, a higher calling job. Teri Schmidt [00:16:16]: Right. Yeah. That reminds me of the story, and I'm trying to remember the specifics about it, but I, I know it was during COVID and it was an individual who was working, I think, maintaining the server bank or, or something like that. Tamara Myles [00:16:29]: Keisha, we call her Keisha in the book. Her real name is. Teri Schmidt [00:16:34]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you mind just quick? Tamara Myles [00:16:37]: Sure. We open, we open the book with Kristen's story, you know, after the introduction, because it's, it's such a powerful example of how, how every job can be meaningful. Right. If we think about a frame about it, highlight the impact, connect with others, like all the, all the things that, that generate the three Cs. But Kristin is a. Or was at the time. She's no longer in that role, but she was a worker at a data center in. Outside of Toronto. Tamara Myles [00:17:08]: And when Covid and for Microsoft, when Covid hit, you know, those, those data center workers were deemed essential, right? Because basically all our communications were done electronically via Zoom email, FaceTime. And so it was really important that the data centers be operating right? The, the cloud, we had to keep that up and running for medical reasons, for, for schooling, for really important, essential reasons. And so Kristin was deemed an essential worker, and she had to go in person to the data center every day. And data center workers work long shifts. Data centers are usually a little bit remote from, from big cities for safety reasons. So she was commuting, you know, working these long shifts when most of her colleagues were working from home. Her family, she is an immigrant, so she, her family's from a different country, so she was feeling disconnected for her from her family and kind of resenting having to come in. And her experience was very common with the data center workers. Tamara Myles [00:18:12]: And so Microsoft reached out to us and asked us to come in and work with their data center teams, which, again, just highlighting Microsoft is one of the organizations we highlight in the book a lot. It's one of the organizations we study. They are so intentional about building a strong culture, growth mindset culture, or caring culture or a meaningful culture. And so they, they had us come in and we worked with teams all over the world actually during that time. But we worked with Kristen's team to unlock what makes work meaningful for each, each individual. And sometimes it was, you know, being able to provide for my family, it was the impact that, that they had on the family. Sometimes it was the impact that they have on each other, or sometimes knowing that they're in this together with their colleagues. And as everybody was sharing their stories and what makes work meaningful for them, Kristen just had this flash of insight and she realized that keeping those servers running was literally saving lives. Tamara Myles [00:19:18]: During COVID it was how dogs were, you know, were able to communicate. It's how kids were able to keep learning. And she was not just connecting wires, she was literally connecting people. And that really changed in that moment, how. How she saw, how she sees her job, how she saw her role. And she took a post it and wrote down the ways that her job is having an impact and, and put the post it on her monitor. We, we share the picture and it actually inspired the COVID of the book. And, you know, that it's. Tamara Myles [00:19:55]: It's not like, oh, that was great. And it solved all the problems. And she never felt isolated again. She did. There were still moments she didn't want to commit. There were still moments she felt demotivated. And she would read that Post it and remind herself of the bigger impact. And it really transformed her relationship to her job and then the impact that it has on her colleagues too, because she was able to contribute to their sense of contribution, to their sense of. Tamara Myles [00:20:20]: To highlighting for them why their work really mattered. Teri Schmidt [00:20:24]: Yeah, that's, that's interesting. You know, even though she felt isolated maybe in the job, and clearly the tie in with contributions, very clear in that story. But, but the connection to the greater community, it sounds like, as well, you know, in addition to the community of her co workers, but the community of the world, in a sense, is an interesting, interesting tie in there as well. So, like I said, I had trouble figuring out where we wanted to focus this conversation because I don't want to keep you for too long. And I chose to really dig into your topic of balanced autonomy because I think, I mean, community has a special place in my heart. And we could talk about belonging and community for a long time, and we just talked about contribution a little bit. But I think that challenge piece is one that leaders sometimes struggle with. And it's either, you know, they're too worried about being a micromanager, so they are on one end of the spectrum, or they are, you know, I need to delegate everything and give, you know, all my team full autonomy. Teri Schmidt [00:21:31]: And because they do that sometimes, maybe there's not enough clarity. So I was really intrigued by the concept of balance autonomy, and I, I thought we could spend some time there. So I'm curious, you know, what makes that so important? And I'd love to hear about examples of balanced autonomy that you've seen in practice. Wes Adams [00:21:50]: This is such a critical topic, I think, especially for the moment that we're in, because the things that worked yesterday are not going to work tomorrow. We're going through such rapid change, AI disruption. You know, we've got all of these other uncertainties happening in the world, and we know a lot of change is coming. And so we can't rely on people at the top to make all the decisions. We need for people at the ground level to figure out new ways of doing things and tap into that collective creativity and innovation and persistence. And so this idea of balanced autonomy relies on something that we talk about at the beginning of the book, which is alignment, and that's alignment around values in an organization. Have you clearly communicated what you believe as an organization and what that actually means in practice? Right. What does if, if transparency is one of your values, what does that mean to you? Have you defined the behaviors associated with that? And are the leaders of the organization walking that talk. Wes Adams [00:22:53]: And have you designed your organizational process around, you know, those values? Right. If you have, and then you can sort of tap into this balanced autonomy if you haven't. This is actually something we talk about outside of the three Cs because it was a set of practices that didn't actually increase meaning much, but was the fastest way to kill meaning was to not do so. We really think as a foundation for work and necessary but not sufficient part. And so assuming you what we believe in the organization, go ahead and figure out your own way to get there. And of course this involves, you know, some more coaching rather than telling on behalf of the leader. One of the organizations that we studied that does this really well is the Ritz Carlton. You know, they're famous for their incredible service and they've been around for over a hundred years. Wes Adams [00:23:48]: You know, and you would think an organization like that has a very detailed set of rules and you know, they've learned all the tricks and they know exactly what to do in every situation. But it's exactly the opposite. They have set of guiding principles that they teach, you know, when they onboard people, they spend two weeks teaching them to people, telling stories about them so people really understand them. And then they turn everybody loose and say, your job is to build Ritz Carlton customers for life, is to build relationships where people are just like blown away by the service. And then they give everybody $2,000, no questions asked, to address any customer issues or opportunities that they see. And so some of the stories there we heard were, you know, there was like a couple visiting for their 10th anniversary and the Ritz Carlton employees found out like what the wedding cake and the decorations were for their original wedding and recreated that surprise them with it. You know, like somebody left his passport in New York and like one of the employees flew up, got it and flew back same day so that he could make his international trip. You know, crazy things like that that nobody asked for a manager's permission on. Wes Adams [00:25:00]: You know, nobody had to do any, but they just, you know, there's that culture of balanced autonomy where people can do those things that matter in a trusted way. Teri Schmidt [00:25:11]: And then does the balance really come in from the alignment? Tamara Myles [00:25:16]: Yes. Teri Schmidt [00:25:17]: Okay. Tamara Myles [00:25:18]: It's, it's the, the, the alignment creates the boundaries, right? Because I think where leaders struggle with giving autonomy is this all or nothing thinking that I either have to micromanage or it's a free for all and then I'm going to lose control and nobody's going to know and it's Going to be anarchy. Right. And I think the, the balance point, the balance in the autonomy is, is the alignment, is knowing what the boundaries are and, you know, a good way to think about it. I think we opened the book with a story of my daughter, who's my oldest child, who is now about to turn 20. But when she was three or three or four, you know, all of a sudden she wanted to dress herself. Right. And, you know, the morning routine became a battle because she wanted to wear her princess costume with pajama pants and a tiara and high heeled shoes from, you know, princess to preschool, which was not appropriate. And of course, then we were laid and there was this whole thing and what we did was kind of reorganize her closet with, okay, this section is your play clothes, this is your school clothes, this is your dress up clothes. Tamara Myles [00:26:33]: And so then we could give her autonomy because we had created the boundaries we had aligned on. Okay, when you get ready for school in the morning, you can choose from this section of the closet. And it was really easy. And so she felt empowered. She had the autonomy and, you know, we could guarantee pretty much that she wasn't going to go to school with inappropriate. Teri Schmidt [00:26:56]: Yeah. Play clothes. Tamara Myles [00:26:59]: It's just like a really simple example to, you know, but we offer a lot in the book. Southwest is another example that we highlight there. Teri Schmidt [00:27:08]: Yeah, I think it, I think sometimes that align. Well, oftentimes, unfortunately, that alignment piece might be missing or might not be done as extensively as like you were talking about with Ritz Carlton. It's done for multiple weeks. Where these are specific stories of how the values are in action. These are, you know, the, the principles, what they look like in real life and, and how you might encounter a situation that, you know, requires you to make a decision. And, and these are, you know, kind of ideas for appropriate decisions that you can make almost getting back to your daughter. You know, this is an appropriate decision that you can make for your choice of school clothes. Wes Adams [00:27:51]: Yeah. It means regularly telling the stories of what your values look like in action. And that's something we talk about in the alignment chapter, but also in an onboarding, when we talk about recruiting and onboarding this idea of cultural mastery. Right. How are you bringing people into the culture and values of the organization by sharing what that looks like, by giving them positive examples that they. And they can imitate or learn from. And that creates an environment where we're always talking about what we should be doing and helps people move in that direction. Teri Schmidt [00:28:24]: Yeah, yeah. Tamara Myles [00:28:25]: And I think you'll See, values came up again and again and again and again in our research. Storytelling, values, storytelling around the values. And it's really, you know, some people define culture of culture as, you know, what it's really like to work or how we do things around here. Right. And that's directly related to values. It's the values that drive the behavior. So whether or not they are intentionally defined and then, you know, told and taught and storied around it, they exist. And so are you? Are you. Tamara Myles [00:29:00]: Do you have the values that you want to have? If you haven't done that work, it's so important to do it. And if you're a manager and you. You don't have the authority to do the values work for the organization, let's say you work for a big organ. You can still do that for your team, you know, with your team, to say, okay, what do we care about? What do we believe in? What is what? How do we want to work together? You know, how do we want to show up here? You can still do that. Teri Schmidt [00:29:28]: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's definitely valuable in the onboarding phase. But even, like, as a team leader, if this is something that you haven't done, coming up with those kind of shared agreements for how we're going to work can be done at any. Any point. And I think. Wes Adams [00:29:44]: Absolutely. At the beginning of a project, you know, when you bring a new team member on, like, whatever it is. Teri Schmidt [00:29:50]: Yeah, yeah. Speaking of new team members, I'm curious, how does the balanced autonomy maybe look different for someone who is new to the team, new to the organization, as opposed to maybe someone who has been there for several years? Wes Adams [00:30:10]: Yeah. I think, you know, career stage differences, tenure with an organization, past experience doing certain types of work, all of these things factor in, and you have to obviously flex so that you're giving people enough support. Right. We're not just, like, turning people loose and saying, go figure it out. You know, we also. And I think this gets to some more of the challenge chapter. Right. How do we have high expectations of people and give them stretch opportunities and also support them so that they can actually achieve those things. Wes Adams [00:30:43]: Right. We're not just pushing people out of the nest and hoping that they fly. We're supporting them in those efforts to spread their wings. Teri Schmidt [00:30:52]: Yeah, yeah. I think that is one of the most challenging parts about delegation. One of the most fun parts, too. If you'd like to be kind of a detective and figure out exactly where that edge is for people, that kind of. That leading edge, or, you know, back to my education roots, Vygotsky talks about the zone of proximal development, like, where you have just that right amount of challenge and how to scaffold that and all that. Tamara Myles [00:31:17]: So interesting. Like, so, so much research and education and parenting. You know, we arrived at this concept that we called the zone of possibility. Right. Which is this in the matrix. It's like where high expectations kind of meet high support. But you just mentioned research in education. There was research in parenting, and I think it's just like human development at any stage of our lives. Tamara Myles [00:31:43]: Right. We need the research on flow. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Mihaly Csiksimihal's research on flow is exactly that. It's where, you know, you, you, you have the skills. It's just slightly above your skill set, what you're doing, but you have, you have the skills and the support and all that to. To do it. And so I think that that's such an important concept, whether you're a leader, whether you're developing yourself, whether you're thinking about it as a parent, as an educator, as a coach to really try to find that sweet spot of where, where. Tamara Myles [00:32:18]: Where can you expect more of people, push them, believe in them, give them those stretch assignments, but then obviously offer the right amount of support. Teri Schmidt [00:32:29]: Yeah. And I guess if I put myself in the listener's shoes and I'm, you know, I don't know, maybe a middle manager with a ton of, you know, tasks coming from all different directions, pressure coming from all different directions, this could sound like a lot. And, you know, there could be a tendency to just say, well, I'm going to. I'm going to go back to the natural way I do things the easiest way to get things done. Why is it worth it for them to care about balanced autonomy? And even bigger, why is it worth it for them to care about meaningful work? Tamara Myles [00:33:04]: Well, I have an answer. I'm sure Wes is answering. So I think, you know, I love Einstein's quote. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Right. And I think we start here. Like, is what you're doing currently working for you? Are the results great? Is that what you want? And if so, keep doing what we're doing. Like, we're not here to tell you, like, reinvent the wheel. Tamara Myles [00:33:28]: Like, I'm sure you're doing a lot of things right. So that's, that's one thing, but the other thing is, you know, most, Most people that we work with, most people that I'VE coached or that we consult with. And the leaders we interviewed really want to be a great leader. They care about people, they want to develop their people. They want their people to perform at their best, to bring out the best in them, they believe in them. And so these are tools to help you do that, to help you bring out the best, to help you push people to excellence, to help them perform better, to motivate them. And so I think most leaders want to be that leader. Right. Tamara Myles [00:34:13]: And so these are just resources to help you do that. Teri Schmidt [00:34:18]: Yeah. Tamara Myles [00:34:19]: Wes, what do you think? What would you say? Wes Adams [00:34:21]: I agree with that. And I would, I would sort of go back to what I said, I think, at the beginning of this topic, which is we can't assume that. We know that what we did yesterday is going to work tomorrow. Right. And so if you're just telling people what to do, you're not going to get the innovation or the creativity or frankly, even the information that you need to make good decisions. Because first, people hate being micromanaged. It's, you know, we've all been there and it's very uncomfortable. And, you know, if I'm putting my middle manager hat on, there's a lot of pressure to perform. Wes Adams [00:34:56]: Right. And to hit our deliverables, to hit our objectives. And when something doesn't go smoothly, it can be really frustrating. You're like, oh, this is not what I was expecting from this project. And now I'm really frustrated. And, you know, we're going to have to do this over. And, you know, we don't necessarily build in that idea that mistakes, failures are part of the growth process. Right. Wes Adams [00:35:22]: This idea of growth mindset that probably a lot of your listeners are familiar with. Right. Like, if we're working on the assumption that 100% of the time people are going to deliver exactly what we need, we're always going to be disappointed because that's just not how it works. And so figuring out how to build that in to your calculation of what should be happening, that's not to say we should be making mistakes all the time and you know, but, but we want to be learning as we go and thinking about how we're developing people in addition to having them deliver on their, their current responsibilities. Teri Schmidt [00:35:59]: Yeah, and I think that development and everything else that meaningful work builds, whether that is a greater sense of well being, trust, community, that makes hitting those deliverables so much easier and avoids so many of the challenges that often come up as the most common challenges for leaders. Whether that be, how do I motivate someone to perform well. Everything that you have in your book are like accelerants to motivation. You know, there are ways to make it so much easier to motivate someone to get the work done that you need to get done to hit those results. You know, how do I deal with a low performing team member? Well, if you have that foundation of alignment and meaningful work, there's so much to fall back on to help get that back on track and help get that person to a place where they can succeed. Wes Adams [00:36:58]: Yeah, I think one of the things that we probably should have mentioned up front is that we continue to focus on meaningful work because it's the upstream factor that drives all of the outcomes that we're looking for, both individually. You know, things like job satisfaction and engagement and well being, but also at the organizational level. It, you know, meaningful work very clearly is a predictor of high performance, innovation, creativity. There's newer research from Oxford showing that it drives stock price, profitability, all of these things. So if we want to succeed as business leaders, this is absolutely fundamental. It's not a nice to have, it's a must have. Teri Schmidt [00:37:40]: Yeah, agreed. And you've both referenced several times like the changing world that we're in too. Just one last question about that because I can see some people thinking balanced autonomy sounds great. If I can watch that person, if I have a line of sight to that person all the time, that's great. But I'm curious, from your perspective, what risks or opportunities does a hybrid or remote work environment present to balanced autonomy? Tamara Myles [00:38:12]: So we, we actually started our research right before the pandemic hit and the world of work has had many rapid transformations since. And one, one of them was the, the whole transition to hybrid and remote and distributed. And so the research we have continued to do and the practices emerged and have continued, these were things organizations were doing before, but then adjusted and continued during, during and now post Covid. And so everything we talk about, including balanced autonomy, can happen and has been happening. And the examples we give are organizations that are doing it in hybrid environments. I think one of the organizations we, we include in the book is HubSpot, which they have offices all over the world and they, the employees have choice whether they want to be in person, fully remote or hybrid employees. And they, and they, they, I think we highlight them in the chapter of balance autonomy actually because those practices work and it, it's a little bit harder of course, when you don't have visibility. And so I think what, what it means to do these things. Tamara Myles [00:39:33]: Let's say, provide balance. Autonomy in a hybrid environment is a lot more intentional and more communication. Right. But. But I think, I think autonomy specifically is a practice that can thrive in hybrid environments. And that's a necessity because we are hybrid and distributed. We need to be able to provide more balanced autonomy. And, you know, the one that suffers, I think of the three Cs, the one that suffers the most in a hybrid environment is community. Tamara Myles [00:40:05]: It's not impossible. A lot of leaders are doing it. But I think autonomy is one that thrives. Can. Can thrive in a hybrid environment. Wes Adams [00:40:14]: I would add to that also, I think going back to alignment. Right. I would say that probably we're pretty agnostic as far as, are you fully remote? Are you doing a certain number of days, are you fully in person, whatever, and every organization is going to be different. But can you clearly tie your decision around workplace design to your values and what you're trying to accomplish? And then are you actually doing the work of designing that time around those things that you say are important? I think the trap that a lot of companies are falling into is saying, well, we need to be in person because people learn that way and it's really critical for our business. And so they make people come in three or four days a week and then they're on zoom calls and nobody's talking to each other. Right. And that's, that's why people are upset and resisting the. All the RTO mandates, because people aren't thinking past just making people come into the office. Wes Adams [00:41:11]: And so if you want people to come in, which is great, it's really important to build relationships, to do creative work together, to get inspired around, you know, the mission of the organization. Make sure you're allocating your time for those things, not just treating it like any other day. Right. We have to be a lot more thoughtful about what we're doing with our time together and intentional and plan it, rather than just say, people need to come in. Teri Schmidt [00:41:39]: Yeah, Yeah. I could not agree more. Thank you. Thank you for bringing up that additional point. I always laugh when people talk about, well, we're missing out on the water cooler conversations. And then you go witness a water cooler and everyone has their earbuds in, you know, and they're just walking right by. Wes Adams [00:41:55]: Those conversations are happening behind the scenes, I promise you. Yeah, yeah. Teri Schmidt [00:42:01]: Well, excellent. Well, like I said, we could go on for much longer, but I really do appreciate both of your time and digging into this a little bit more. And like I said, we're just very skimming the surface of the value that is in the book. And congrats again on doing all the research since and synthesizing it in a way that it is so easy to implement and try out. And I think it's going to have a huge impact on those who read it. So thank you for your work. Beyond getting the book, where else would you like to direct people if they want to learn more about your work or have you come in and talk to their organization or anything like that? Tamara Myles [00:42:43]: Well, thank you. We would love to come in and talk to their organization. The best way to find us is on our website, which is makeworkmeaningful.com we also have a free assessment there you can take to see where you are on your meaning driven leadership journey. And we also have a lot of resources that that you can use for free to help you get there and tools. And then we're both also very active on social media, LinkedIn and Instagram. You can find us there. Teri Schmidt [00:43:11]: Excellent. Well, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it. Tamara Myles [00:43:15]: Thank you. Wes Adams [00:43:16]: Thank you so much. This has been great. Teri Schmidt [00:43:20]: I hope this conversation with Tamara and Wes challenged you to think differently about what makes work meaningful and what your role as a leader truly is. Not just to set goals, not just to delegate tasks, but to intentionally create the conditions where people can belong, contribute and grow. What stood out to me was how easily we can mistake purpose for meaning, how we assume that if the mission is inspiring enough, the rest will take care of itself. But as Tamara and Wes made clear, that's not how meaning works. Meaning isn't delivered from the top. It's built through small, everyday leadership practices, especially how we define alignment, offer challenge, and create room for autonomy. And this is where we as leaders really need to look inside. Because creating that kind of environment, one where autonomy is balanced, feedback is clear, and values are alive in action, requires more than leadership skills. Teri Schmidt [00:44:23]: It really requires a shift in how we think, a move from control to trust, from certainty to curiosity, from reacting to designing. That's the deeper work of leadership and that's what we'll keep exploring this season. If this episode sparks something for you, I'd love to hear about it. Feel free to reach out or share it with a fellow leader who's committed to leading with depth and intention. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time on Strong Leaders Serve.