184. Leading with Cultural Humility with Joel Pérez

What if leadership wasn’t about having the right answers, but about asking better questions? In this episode, Dr. Joel Pérez shares how cultural humility—not just cultural competency—can transform how we lead, build inclusive teams, and create lasting organizational change. We explore why humility is a leadership strength, how to move beyond perfectionism, and what it takes to lead with curiosity in today’s complex world.  

Resources:

• Download the first chapter  of Dear White Leader:  How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility

• Connect with Dr. Joel on LinkedIn

About Joel:

Dr. Joel Pérez is a dynamic executive and leadership coach, speaker, and consultant dedicated to empowering leaders and organizations to achieve their goals while fostering a culture of impact and inclusion through cultural humility. With his guidance, leaders transform their visions into thriving realities. Joel is the author of Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility, a thought-provoking book that equips leaders to foster meaningful change on personal, organizational, and community levels.

Transcript

While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.

Teri Schmidt [00:00:00]: Welcome back. What if the key to truly inclusive leadership isn't knowing more, but instead, approaching others with less certainty? In today's episode of Strong Leaders Serve, I'm joined by Dr. Joel Pérez, a dynamic executive and leadership coach, speaker, and consultant who is reshaping how we think about leadership, belonging, and inclusion. Joel's work centers on cultural humility, a posture, not a destination that empowers leaders to navigate complexity with openness, curiosity, and courage. He's also the author of Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility, a thought provoking guide that invites leaders to transform not only themselves but the organizations and communities they serve. We dig into how cultural humility differs from cultural competency, why perfectionism can get in the way of true inclusion, and how leaders can cultivate a space where curiosity isn't just allowed, it's expected. So let's get into the conversation. I'm Teri Schmidt, Executive and Leadership Coach at Strong Leaders Serve, where we work with compassionate driven leaders to transform potential into performance. And this is the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. Teri Schmidt [00:02:24]: Welcome to the Strong Leaders Serve podcast, Joel. It's so nice to have you on. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:02:29]: Yeah. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me on on the podcast, Sherry. I really appreciate you making the time to to have me on. Teri Schmidt [00:02:36]: Of course. Of course. It it was so fun to meet you and and get to know you a little bit through Paul Sandbar's LEGO serious play, workshop, and it was hilarious as I mentioned to you that I had just been listening to you on Dave's coaching for leaders podcast and then saw that you were gonna be there in the workshop in person and just love the work that you are doing around cultural humility. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:03:02]: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's yes. It's interesting how that happened, and I too am very happy that I got I got to meet you and got the invitation and went through the training with you. And, yeah, looking forward to this conversation. Teri Schmidt [00:03:17]: Well, excellent. Well, I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit about your story and how you came to be focused on cultural humility. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:03:25]: Yeah. That's that's a good question. And I first became familiar with the term in the mid two thousands. I was working at a college up in the Northwest, and I heard someone speak and reference it. And it was new to me at the time. And it stuck with me, mainly because I had I know this may be a question down the road, but, secondly, because I had always been wanting more than just cultural competency. Mhmm. And the term culture humility really resonated with me because I have always felt like competency competency infers that it's something to be achieved, whereas culture humility felt to me like, oh, okay. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:04:09]: This is a posture. This is something that can help you navigate the complexity, and that's what you know, I talk about it in the book. And it wasn't until I started I was going through the coaching certification program, and and they started thinking about, like, you know, as we do when we go to through those certification programs, those are the better coaches and and that are listening. Know that you start thinking about your clients and your programs. And I realized that I wanted to do something around cultural humility to help leaders who identify as white get better at navigate at just leading diverse teams. I identify as Mexican American, Chicano, son of immigrants. Spanish was my first language. I have never had a problem being in spaces where I am helping people get better as opposed to, like, not wanting to work with people who identify as white in this area. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:05:08]: And I have colleagues who have told me they recognize themselves like, Joel, we're really happy you're doing that work. That's not the work that we wanna do. Right? And so I started coaching people. I call it culture humility coaching. And then as I was working with clients, I realized, you know what? I think there's a book here. I think there's a I wanna get the word out to others than just my clients or the people that are interested in hiring me as a coach. And so but that but going back to your original question, mid two thousands is when I became familiar with the term. And then over time, I had done some research and really thinking more about it and then recognizing that competency for me was felt limiting, but still extremely important to develop. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:05:56]: And I call it I reference it as the foundation towards developing a posture of cultural humility. But I but as I work with people and then when I speak and done workshops, the idea that cultural competency infers that it's something to be achieved really resonates with people, and they too want there has to be something more than just getting a certificate or checking a box, which what which is what sometimes it feels like to people when they hear the term competency. Teri Schmidt [00:06:28]: Yeah. Yeah. That that's such a good point and the the distinction between the two. Before I dig into that a little bit more because I definitely have some things that I'd like to ask you to to go a little bit deeper on, But I'd love to just, you know, hear a little bit more about the book. I had the opportunity to read it and love love the approach as well as, you know, the practical tips in it about you know, these are the steps that you can take not only as an individual, but also from a systems perspective, you know, that that needs to be in place. So I'd love for you to share. I've heard a little bit about the story kind of behind the book, your white leader. I think it started as just one article, if I remember correctly, and and then evolved into a book, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about that from your perspective. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:07:17]: Yeah. So the the title itself and the whole idea of of why also I wrote the or really why I chose the title is after the murder of George Floyd, I was not in a good place, very angry, upset, and really felt like I needed to call out my colleagues and friends who identify as white, who are leaders, who are in in organizations and they have positions of influence to really start helping change systems. And and so I wrote a blog post with that title, dear white leader, and I talk about why I think it's important for for white people to get engaged in this work, particularly, in that moment in history, which still, of course, applies to today. And and so I wrote the blog post, and then as I started thinking about writing this book around cultural humility, I really wanted my target audience to be people who identify as white leaders, who are wanting to get better at leading diversity work, inclusion work, creating a sense of belonging. And and so that is what, you know, sort of the title. And then the the work itself was I I knew cultural competency was important, and I but I knew there was more to that and and wanted to provide opportunities for you to learn how do you how do you move from cultural competency to cultural humility. And so I developed an online course. It's available on my website. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:08:48]: That's not my ask at the end, but, if people wanna wanna it's a mini course. And Great. In that process, I got really excited, and I wanted my doctoral advisor to share, you know, to write an endorsement for it. Mhmm. And so I I sent it to her. We then met for coffee, and she looked at me. And I tell the story in the book. And she she looked at me and she said, it's a great, Joel, that you're talking about things for individuals, but how does that impact the organization? Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:09:19]: Because it's not just about you. It's important for you to do the work, but ultimately, how is it gonna lead to change, which is what's necessary in order for peep for organizations to become more inclusive. And so I took that advice from her and integrated that in the book. So it's not just about one of the aspects of cultural humility is self awareness and self critique, which is extremely important in the foundation, But it's also about how do you change the organization so that way, you know, things are made better for everybody. And and I also believe not just organizations, but then our our communities. And Mhmm. In the book and when I do when I do these talks, I talk about that community isn't community is broad, meaning it's family, friends, it's faith communities, it's our volunteer organizations. So when you start developing this posture, it it's gonna bleed or grow into every aspect of your life so that you're able to engage in these conversations with this posture of culture humility where you're seeking to understand versus seeking to convince. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:10:33]: And so but to back to your point, it was, yes, the blog post. Yes. That's also what led like, I think I think there's a book here. I think I'm gonna leverage that. Not leverage, but take the experience I'm I'm I'm having because of the murder of George Floyd at the height of the pandemic is that I really want to communicate to people the need for change as individuals and ultimately the organizations that we serve. Teri Schmidt [00:11:00]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And you you do do do that so well in the book. I I know there are a lot of books that focus on one or the other, but the way that you combine under this umbrella of cultural humility, I think, is really powerful. And, you know, back to that cultural humility versus cultural competency, I love what you said about, you know, cultural competency feels almost like it's something to be achieved. Like, you you know, you get a certificate. You're competent. Teri Schmidt [00:11:28]: You you've gotta gotta check-in the box. And as I understand it, and I would love to hear more from your perspective about how you understand and define cultural humility. But as I understand it, I think I heard you say cultural humility, you know, allows you to deal with the complexity that is culture. You know? That Yeah. I think a lot of times, you know, people are afraid because they're coming from that cultural competency angle of I don't know everything about this person's culture. And then, you know, even though they identify that certain way, they might not be like someone else who identifies the same way. And and how do I deal with that? I don't wanna assume anything. And I think sometimes that gets people into a place of fear and avoidance. Teri Schmidt [00:12:20]: And as I understand it, cultural humility is a way out of that. So I'd love to hear from you more about that. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:12:27]: Yeah. It it is. And I I was doing a webinar, and someone asked me why do I use the term humility or why why do I call it a posture? And the way I describe the way what I how I described it was that while the posture of culture humility in in my mind is you have open arms and you're ready to receive even when it's not necessarily positive things. And and so it's about developing that posture because you're gonna be able to be nimble because things are gonna happen in your life that just like in anyone's life, things happen in our lives where they don't go the way we think they're gonna go. People get angry at us. We make mistakes. And so having that posture allows you to like, allows you to think of the mistakes as opportunities to grow. So I talk about in the book, I talk about having a growth mindset. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:13:30]: Right? The work that Carol Dweck's done around growth mindset, which isn't easy, but it's important because we we are gonna make mistakes. We all have inherent biases that we've learned over time. Teri Schmidt [00:13:47]: Yeah. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:13:47]: One of the things I talk about is getting clear on your biases. And then it's not about it's about how do you mitigate their impact because they're not gonna go away. You cannot eradicate bias. We all have biases. Right? Mhmm. And that posture is gonna help you and help the leader, the coach, executive recognize, yeah, I'm gonna make mistakes. It's what do I do with those mistakes when they happen that's gonna help me be better. Right? That's gonna help me become I talk about becoming an exceptional leader. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:14:23]: And because I think we as leaders, I from I guess I'll speak for myself. I wanna keep getting better. Right? I wanna improve my craft, and it's not science per se. Like, they're just boxes that you check. It is an art, meaning it does take work and making mistakes along the way. But the idea is is growing from those mistakes or seeing the mistakes as opportunities to develop yourself as well as developing the people around you. So in the book, it's it's, you know, it's circular, self awareness, self critique, redressing power imbalances, organizational change, but it always goes back to self awareness. Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:15:05]: Why? Because we're gonna make mistakes. Teri Schmidt [00:15:08]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:15:09]: And no matter how good we think we are, we're going to make mistakes, but it's and just with leadership. Right? Those of you who are listening, who are leaders, you know you're gonna make mistakes, and you do make mistakes. There's not a perfect leader, but it's what you do with those mistakes that make you, that make you a better leader and the leader that people want to want to follow. Teri Schmidt [00:15:32]: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So I I guess just to level set, you know, for anyone who's not familiar with cultural competency, how would that differ, you know, if we were to distinguish between those two? In your mind, how do they differ? Cultural competency and cultural humility. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:15:51]: Yeah. The the main difference is is really I mean, again, I would say, to answer your question, the main difference or the difference is that competency is a mindset that people have, meaning they've they they are, like, I just wanna get to from point a to point b. Mhmm. Ultra humility is, yes, you start at point a, but there is no point b because society has changed and will continue to change. Competency. So it's so I would say the different going back, difference is mindset. Meaning that competency is that check a box, I attended a course, I read a book. Culture humility is this posture because we know that complexity happens and things aren't stagnant. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:16:38]: Right? Yeah. And so we're always growing. Mhmm. So it's really a mindset. Although there are aspects of competency that overlap with humility, particularly around the self awareness piece. So developing cultural self awareness is important in competency and cultural humility. And I think there's aspects that you talk about when you're doing cultural competency courses or whatever about changing the organization. Culture humility really, I believe, allows you to go deeper because you are thinking about how you change the system in a way that's gonna bring about meaningful change and competency. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:17:21]: Although Terry Cross and his associates did a good job of laying the foundation, organizational change. But I think the work of Trevalon and Garcia around culture humility, I think, provides a deeper way to think about changing the system so you're able to be nimble because society is ever changing. As con as hard as hard as that may be for certain people, the reality is that things continue to shift and change, and we have to learn how to adapt the way we lead based on the communities we serve and will and will serve into the future. Teri Schmidt [00:18:03]: Right. Right. Right. And and those communities are complex, and you took the word out of my mouth that, you know, need to be nimble. I and I know you acknowledge cultural competency as kind of a foundation, almost like a a base knowledge. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:18:16]: Mhmm. Teri Schmidt [00:18:16]: But then that humility on top of that is does enable you to adapt to the complexity that is all around us so that you can be nimble and exude that same care for people that probably drove you to explore cultural competency in Dr. Joel Pérez [00:18:34]: in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in in in the book, I tell a story about how our 17 year old came out to us Teri Schmidt [00:18:43]: and Dr. Joel Pérez [00:18:43]: that I really did, at that moment, recognize that what I learned fifteen years ago as a parent who is culturally competent, that I wasn't ready for the shift for us as parents in creating space for them to explore their identities. Mhmm. Right? And because what I was taught fifteen years ago was when society was in a very different place than where it is now. And having that posture has allowed me to recognize that and also acknowledge, like, we've talked about already is I'm gonna make mistakes. I'm gonna misgender my child. I'm going to say the wrong thing, but what do I how do I learn from that? And, you know, learning how to apologize and those and that's really, really important when it comes to affirming people's identities so that you can create the space or so that we can create space for Jaden to grow in their own identity without feeling like they have to conform to what we want them to conform to. Teri Schmidt [00:19:46]: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that is such a powerful posture for life, really. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:19:56]: Mhmm. Yep. Yep. Teri Schmidt [00:19:56]: Applies to applies to so many different situations. You know, another thing that probably applies to more than just talking about culture, but is you talk about perfectionism, and you talk about that being one of the characteristics that makes it difficult for organizations to be more inclusive. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:20:14]: Yeah. Teri Schmidt [00:20:15]: So I'd I'd love to hear more about how that relates to cultural humility. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:20:20]: Yeah. So in in the book, I talk about we talk about self awareness, self critique, and then the second phase or second is redressing power imbalance, is, right, as we begin to recognize that there are gaps in our organization. Right? So learning how to look at data, particularly if you wanna create a more inclusive organization that meets the needs of all the key stakeholders that we serve. But I also talk about these feelings of estrangement, which are the opposite of a sense of belonging. And one of them is perfectionism Mhmm. As a as a characteristic or as a component of feelings of estrangement. And I I was I mean, I've I've been guilty of this before. I want things to be perfect. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:21:03]: I want people to work a certain way. And the reality is that no one's perfect. Right? Yet we've been conditioned to want want people to be perfect or things to be perfect. And so when someone makes a mistake, we focus on the mistake. And sometimes that means, for some people, it means belittling an employee, thinking less of them because they they messed up. But a reframe is so instead of focusing on the mistake and making that person feel bad about their decision, what if we came along with what if we came alongside with them and created a learning opportunity for them to get better? Mhmm. Right? And and wanting them to experiment. So the the one of the things that I've heard and people talk about is Pixar has been really successful because they allow people to to experiment, to try different things. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:22:06]: They bring a lot of different people into the conversation. Companies that you would consider innovative allow for that space for people to try things and not be afraid of being, you know, if they if they make a mistake. And and we as leaders need to be better at creating that space, that sense of belonging as opposed to feelings of estrangement. And that's really, really important. And I'm not saying that you don't keep people accountable, so I don't want people to misinterpret what I'm saying. If there needs to be accountability, then there needs to be accountability. But we need we as leaders need to let go of our desire to to of our desire for people to be perfect. Right. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:22:54]: Or for things to be perfect. Because like I said earlier, we're gonna make mistakes. We are not perfect people. People are not perfect. And so that's way perfectionism will get in the way of developing this this posture of cultural humility because we're Teri Schmidt [00:23:11]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:23:11]: Holding on to this idea that people and things need to be perfect in order for us to be successful. And the reality is no. We're gonna make mistakes. We need to try different things. So it's creating that space for people and for us to try things knowing that we may do the wrong thing. But, again, what do we do with that mistake so we can get better? Teri Schmidt [00:23:35]: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's such a great reminder because it it does definitely limit that growth mindset that you spoke about. And, you know, I think as I think about our listeners, they are compassionate driven leaders, so they care deeply about people. And I think that quest for perfectionism is particularly powerful in the cultural aspects. So if they tend to if they identify as white or are in some other place of power Mhmm. You know, their desire to not say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing that might offend someone Mhmm. And to be perfect in that way. Teri Schmidt [00:24:20]: And I know I'm talking more now on the individual, but I I just see that as being very powerful and and can keep people in a place of fear and avoidance and and just not wanting to explore it. And then you don't get the benefit and, you know, have the curiosity with people to learn about them and and value from Mhmm. Yeah. Their unique perspectives. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:24:44]: Yeah. And and in the book and and when I do the when I do workshops, when I speak, trying to get people to understand that you what's happened in our society, in our organizations is is we we don't allow people who are curious that are in the middle to explore because they're afraid that they're gonna be labeled one thing or another Mhmm. Or allowing the extremes to influence. And and I acknowledge that, you know, as a man of color who's been doing diversity work for a long time, I was on one extreme or have been on one extreme or the other. And if I hear someone from the other extreme early on in my career, I would I would label them. Right? And I wouldn't really wanna listen to them, which then creates it it then creates environment people then isolate themselves because they're afraid to ask questions. So as organizations or as leaders of organizations, we need to create space for exploration and asking questions. And that's gonna help people have a better understanding so that they can be better as opposed to just shutting down and isolating themselves. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:25:58]: And, like, don't it's that fixed mindset. I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing because if I do anything that's gonna offend someone, I'm just I'm just I'm not I'm not I don't want that for myself, so I'd rather just not say anything at all. And that's where I I believe that's become problematic with our society. Mhmm. Is that we don't allow for space for conversation because we're afraid of of saying the wrong thing. And Yeah. And that's you know, that that that could be detrimental to the say this this goal of creating a sense of belonging, the psychological safety that our organizations need. Teri Schmidt [00:26:37]: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. And, you know, I I think that ability of leaders to create that space where people can be curious and and feel safe doing that, and I see the book Seek behind you as well. We we studied that for for one of our book club sessions. Great, excellent book. But I, you know, I think that feeling that safety to be curious is something that is difficult to foster in yourselves, but even, you know, perhaps more difficult to foster in a team. Teri Schmidt [00:27:12]: So I'm curious what you've seen leaders do. You know, what steps have they taken that has enabled them to be curious themselves, but also set up that environment where it is safe for a team to be curious as it relates to cultural humility? Dr. Joel Pérez [00:27:30]: Yeah. That's a good question. So in my coaching with leaders, we talk about I coach around helping the leader get learn how to be curious. Right? The Mhmm. What's on my shirt. Teri Schmidt [00:27:41]: Oh, it depends on your shirt as well. Yeah. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:27:43]: By by ask learning how to ask themselves questions, like, what am I not listening to myself today? Why do I find this challenging? And then from a leadership or supervision standpoint is what can you do when you're when you're supervising someone who who is making mistakes or not following through instead of being really directive? Are is there is are there open ended questions you can ask to get a better sense of that person, like, why they took that approach? Mhmm. And what I have discovered as leaders start applying those concepts, they come back and say to me, that was really good. Like, I learned so much. And even though the even though it was a mistake or Mhmm. That person needs to get better, it was a different the tone of the conversation was different than if I were to just tell them, if you're not on time the next time, I'm gonna fire you. Right? It's an extreme example. Right? Sure. And so when they've applied what we've coached around, they come back and report, oh, this is great. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:28:49]: And what that does in the organization, or at least in their their vertical or their area, is that people then begin to, like, hey. Joel actually really wants to know about me and and and and he's he's curious. And the one thing I do stress that's really important is that leaders preface that they're going to be curious and they're gonna ask questions, not to make sure their their people know. It's not that they're being judgmental, but they're curious in creating that environment. So they do that before they have to ask questions so that Teri Schmidt [00:29:26]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:29:26]: Someone doesn't go, why are you asking me that question? Like, are you judging me? Or, and so that's really important. And so we you know, I coach around that. But once they report starting to apply this curiosity, that learning they can see the learning starting start to happen in the people that they lead. And it leads the people they lead to recognize that they they can get better. And I'm I'm gonna be I, the employee, are gonna be more feel safety in sharing with my boss when I make mistakes, instead of hiding the mistakes. And that then bleeds out into the overall team. The other thing, I was working with an executive director, and we're talking about their team meetings, and I said, so are there questions that you can ask? One to preface the curiosity piece. As you're working through an agenda, or are there things you can ask about certain are there things you can ask depending on the topic? And they then again, going back, they started applying and they're like, their team then start showing up differently. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:30:37]: Right? Because they recognize that the leader really wants to know for it's coming from a genuine place. Teri Schmidt [00:30:44]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:30:44]: And it's about getting better as a team so they can meet their their team goals and their organizational goals. Teri Schmidt [00:30:51]: Right. Right. What would what would be some examples of of questions that you've seen leaders utilize in in specific situations, if there are any you can share? Dr. Joel Pérez [00:31:03]: Yeah. Well, I was working with a client today, and she's got a difficult employee who is very demanding. And one of the questions we landed on or previously that we landed on is because as a as a leader, particularly one that you a leader who really likes to serve their people When people come to us and ask us that they want certain things, we, you know, either say yes or no, which sometimes doesn't go over well. So the posture, what what we train what we coached around was how can you be curious in those moments. Right? You wanna listen to the person. Mhmm. So for example, this is an extreme example. Well, that it someone comes to you and they want a raise. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:31:49]: Right? Teri Schmidt [00:31:50]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:31:50]: Which is very common. Right? Mhmm. For you, the leader to say, I hear you. What the question, Atlanta, what if I can't give you what you want? Mhmm. Because the reality is that we can ask for lots of things, but the organization may not be able to give us that 10% raise or that 15% raise. And what that other what their employee then recognized, they they're still not happy, but they feel like this particular leader felt like they feel like they've been Teri Schmidt [00:32:23]: heard. Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:32:24]: So it could be, hey, Joel. I hear you. You want a 20% raise. Mhmm. And I'm gonna advocate for you, but what if I can't give you what you want? Teri Schmidt [00:32:36]: Right. What Dr. Joel Pérez [00:32:37]: what what happens then? Right? And that person then starts thinking, oh, okay. Yeah. Well, am I not happy enough where I lead the organization? So that's an example. The the other one is, you know, helping team so Shigyoka talks about this in the book. Right? The the questions to ask create a culture of curiosity organization Mhmm. Is helping leaders use the phrase tell me more. Right. Particularly when they hear someone they're leading say something that just creates, like, some dissonance or questions to get in the habit of just saying, tell me more. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:33:14]: Right? Yeah. And that when leaders start doing that, their what they report back to me is that their employees feel like, yeah. I need to be, like, yeah. I wanna share with you more. I just need the prompt. Right? And so so that's an example. Another example, but not a question, but it's a statement. Right? But it leads to some conversation. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:33:37]: Yeah. The the other one in particular that that leaders can use when someone is not meeting expectations Teri Schmidt [00:33:44]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:33:45]: Right, or not following through is to tell them, okay, so our agreement or the expectation was that you get this report in on time or that you complete the assignment by the state. It didn't happen. Help me understand what the help me understand what the context of you not being able to meet that expectation or make that agreement. And that leads to a conversation, right, as opposed to, like, you're not meeting expectations. You need to change. But you don't know what's happening in that person, right, or why it is that they are not meeting the expectations or something deeper. And it could be they're misaligned with the work, or it could be like, I just had a lot of stuff going on, and I'm I'm more, you know, I'm more than my job. I have a family and and and so then it leads to a conversation. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:34:37]: Right? So yeah. Teri Schmidt [00:34:39]: Yeah. And I think that, again, back to the posture, you know, the openness, the I see you, I want to know you that comes across through that curiosity, through that question. I could see that applying, you know, back to the the topic of cultural humility, you know, as we understand the complexity that makes up Dr. Joel Pérez [00:35:02]: Mhmm. Teri Schmidt [00:35:03]: Each person. Yes. You know? Mhmm. I think that that same approach, that same openness and curiosity and willingness to learn and create so much openness in in a team. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:35:21]: Yes. For sure. I mean, I think that's that goes back to the the culture of belonging. Right? People feel like they can be who they are and and not be afraid to be or not not living or showing up at work with the fear that you're gonna come down on them if if they make a mistake or if they don't follow through, that you genuinely care about them as people because because people are people. Right? Right. And we're gonna bring what's happening in our world into our work space, and it takes leaders who are rec who recognize that to then say, okay, how do we how do we move forward if there's challenges? Or how do we celebrate you for who you are so that you feel connected to the organization and that sense of belonging and that psychological safety so that you can thrive as opposed to just, you know, showing up to work because you just need a paycheck and you're not happy. Teri Schmidt [00:36:16]: Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. You know, one one thing that I heard almost not against curiosity, but it's something that I think could dissuade curiosity perhaps. You know? And I'm thinking back to the pandemic, back to, you know, right after George Floyd, and and I think I understand what was behind this. But a lot of times when people were asking questions, they were met with the response of you need to do your own research. Teri Schmidt [00:36:43]: I'm not and and I under and I my understanding of that is that because at that time, you know, people in marginalized groups are being put on panels in front of entire Yeah. You know, organizations and and kind of being used as the the sole source of information. But I just, you know, kinda wanted to hear your perspective on on that and how you can still be curious but not take advantage of someone or, you know Yeah. In any other way. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:37:14]: Yeah. That's that's a great question, Terry. And so the way I would so if I was working with the white leader who's like, I really wanna know more about you, Joel, but or ask you to do something, right, is to, one, ask permission. Right? And say, hey, hey, Joel. There's this event coming up. We're looking for a diverse group. You don't need to say yes. Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:37:37]: But would you be willing to serve on this panel? Or, hey, Joel. I wanna ask a question about your culture because I'm really curious, and it's coming from a place of curiosity and genuineness. Are you okay answering the question? Right? Teri Schmidt [00:37:53]: Right. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:37:53]: And it gives me permission to say no. Mhmm. And if if I say no, then that person has given me, you know, has given permission to say no, and they're just gonna walk away. They're not gonna keep pressing. Right? So here's an here's a, I guess, a real life example. I just gave a talk last week. Teri Schmidt [00:38:11]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:38:12]: And I used an example in the talk that didn't go over very well. Right? That I offended this one person. Teri Schmidt [00:38:19]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:38:20]: They provided the feedback via email. And I responded to the email and I said, I am so sorry. I would like to talk to you further about this if you would like. Don't feel obligated to respond. I just wanna make myself available to hear and listen. Thank you very much for the feedback, Joel. Mhmm. Right? I didn't get defensive because it would have been very easy. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:38:49]: It was a virtual presentation. It was a virtual keynote with a lot of technology issues, and it was hard. I couldn't read the audience. But I didn't I didn't get I didn't get defensive. Right? Say, well, it happened because of this. And so when you are wanting to know more about someone's culture, identity, is just ask permission. It's like, hey. I really wanna know more. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:39:09]: Are you okay if we, like, sit and explore? And then you, Terry, have, you know, the permission to say, yes. I'd love to sit with you and talk. Or Mhmm. I'm tired right now. I am I'm just exhausted. And Yeah. Then for me to say, okay. I'm good. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:39:26]: Yeah. And not come back unless the other thing you could say is when you're ready, I'm here. If you if you ever feel like you could talk about it. But if not, that's good. Teri Schmidt [00:39:37]: Yeah. Yeah. Just just so in that respect in the asking permission, and I I think what's so beautiful about the example you shared is that, you know, I I I put myself in that place, and I could see myself feeling very, like, eager to have a conversation with that person because it meets a need for me. You know, it it brings me some closure. But the way that you did it was to respect that person and offer offer the opportunity to talk further about it. But if it it wasn't, you know, a good move for that person, then you're fine. It's because it's not about you at that point. It's it's about them. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:40:18]: Yeah. And in the book, I talk about the book, Did That Just Happen. And they talk about how to how to approach when you, the leader, commit a microaggression or make a mistake, replicate with communities of color or communities of from under underrepresented communities. And and and that actually, there's a lot of good stuff in there that leaders can learn from, not just white leaders, but any leader because like I share in the book and when I do these workshops, I I still make mistakes. Teri Schmidt [00:40:46]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:40:46]: Even as a man of color who grew up, you know, below the poverty line, it does a lot of diversity work. I still have bias. It still shows up. I still commit a micro you know, I still commit microaggressions. It's what do I do and how do I how do I apologize, but then what do I do to learn from that so it doesn't Teri Schmidt [00:41:07]: Mhmm. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:41:08]: Happen again is really, really important. Teri Schmidt [00:41:11]: Yeah. Yeah. And that is that is the the stance of cultural humility. So I I think that's great great way to end and a great example. If people want to learn more about your work, obviously, buy the book, and and we'll link that and and link you know, share all of your links. But where else would you like them to go? Dr. Joel Pérez [00:41:33]: Yeah. LinkedIn, you could find me on LinkedIn. But if you're interested in in reading a portion of the book, you can go to dearwhiteleader.com, and you can download the first chapter. Teri Schmidt [00:41:45]: Okay. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:41:45]: So and and no there's no cost to that. Mhmm. One, it gives you, like, hey. I'm gonna read through this. And if you like it, then you can, you know it's available on all the platforms, not just not just print, but it's available on audio and electronic. And so but if you wanna download the first chapter just to say, okay. This resonates with me. I wanna read more. Teri Schmidt [00:42:06]: Excellent. Excellent. Well, make sure that direct link is included as well. And I just wanna thank you again for your time and and for the work that you do each day. I think there's so much for us to learn from it, and our world would be a much better place if we could all approach it from the posture of cultural humility. So thank you for being the voice for that. Dr. Joel Pérez [00:42:31]: Wow. It's been my pleasure, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you, Terry. Teri Schmidt [00:42:39]: If there's one thing to take away from today's conversation, it's this. Leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about staying curious and committed to growth. This week, I invite you to approach one conversation with the posture of cultural humility. Ask yourself, what might I be missing? Thanks again to doctor Joel for coming on the podcast for this conversation and be sure to check out his website with the free chapter download and definitely go out and grab his book because especially in these times, a posture of cultural humility can be so powerful. Have a great week and I look forward to being together with you again next week