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145. Getting Past "Us vs. Them" in Our Quest for Justice with Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp

When working to make our workplaces more compassionate and just, it's easy to give into the temptation to utilize the "us vs. them" paradigm. "Othering" those who disagree with us can bring a sense of clarity and belonging. But, our guest for this episode, Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp, emphasizes the need to move away from divisive thinking and instead focus on regenerative justice. As we continue our series focusing on female changemakers, this conversation with Dr. Kemp provides insight and wisdom for how leaders can break free from the limitations imposed by the 'us vs. them' paradigm to create lasting change. Resources:

About Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp:

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp headshot
Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp

Dr. Amanda Kemp, also known as Aminata Sol Plant Walker Fire Woman, graduated from Stanford University after surviving the NYC foster care system. She is the founder of Racial Justice from the Heart and the author of the Amazon best-seller Stop Being Afraid: 5 Steps to Transform your Conversations about Racism. She had a spiritual awakening in 2021 when she received the message to stop everything and that the trees on her land wanted to adopt her. Over the course of a two-year learning journey, she has been working with deeper truths underneath social justice, journeying with plants and fungi, and subsequently received her new names from an ancestor. She has since integrated the wisdom from trees into her Mother Tree Network podcast and community and continues her deep apprenticeship to the Earth and the feminine divine.


While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Castmagic for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:00:00]:

One of the foundational pieces to me of white supremacy or patriarchy or colonization culture is us versus them. So you're with us or you're against us, you're good or you're bad, that kind of dualistic thinking. And the problem is that when you are working to make change, it can be very effective. It can be very clarifying. It can help you build, movement and motion for change when you make the people who you disagree with, them. So you use that and you start to create tension, fear, hiding, lying, because you don't want to be cast out of the us.

Teri Schmidt [00:00:55]:

Welcome back. If you're listening, you're likely a leader who is Passionate about bringing positive changes to your team and to your workplace. Your values lead you to have a keen sense of what is right And what is wrong. And you're eager to advocate for and organize change around what you know is right. But as our last several episodes have highlighted, Leading change is hard. And it can be easy to fall into traps that seem to make it easier. Our guest today talks about one of those traps, The us versus them paradigm. Doctor Amanda Aminata Kemp emphasizes the need to move away from divisive thinking And instead focus on regenerative justice.

Teri Schmidt [00:01:36]:

She explains that us versus them thinking may initially provide clarity and a sense of belonging, But it ultimately hinders our ability to create lasting change. By embracing regenerative justice, which aligns with nature And emphasizes diversity and interconnection. We can break free from the limitations imposed by the us versus them paradigm. Doctor Amanda, also known as Aminatta, soul plant walker firewoman, graduated from Stanford after surviving the New York City foster care system. She is the founder of Racial Justice From the Heart And the author of the Amazon bestseller, Stop Being Afraid, 5 steps to transform your conversations about racism. She had a spiritual awakening in 2021, transforming the way that she lives and works. Our conversation was rich with insight and wisdom about Healing the divides in our lives. So let's get into that now.

Teri Schmidt [00:02:35]:

I'm Teri Schmidt, a leadership coach here to help you grow. And I believe that leadership is all about courageously using your talents to make a way for others to courageously use theirs. And this is the Strong Leaders Serve podcast. Welcome, Amanda Aminata. I'm so looking forward to our conversation today. I know we had an opportunity to talk on your Podcast. And I'm excited to have you on Strongly to Serve today.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:03:17]:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Teri Schmidt [00:03:19]:

So I like to start with all my guests, just hearing A little bit more about who you are, how you lead today, and perhaps more importantly, what has your journey been like to this point.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:03:34]:

Wow. I, I love, how do you lead today? So As I was saying before we started the show, I am leading by learning how to slow down and savor, how to practice the principles of regeneration, you know, of how the earth does things in my own leadership. So just like there's sunlight and there's nighttime or there's fall winter, spring, summer, you know, there's always, change happening in nature, but it's happening in cycles. And so I am striving to learn to lead with an awareness of the big cycles on the planet, and also my personal cycles.

Teri Schmidt [00:04:27]:

That that is so powerful. And I think, you know, we're surrounded by it all the time, but we don't necessarily pay attention to it and learn as much as we can from it.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:04:38]:

Yeah. It, it becomes something that we, we're numb to and we're conditioned to look to other authorities or guidance. So we look if we're in schools, we look at teachers and principals. If we're at a job, we look at bosses and corporate structures. We look at social media television. So, but actually tuning into You know, it's fall and the leaves are starting to drop right now. Mhmm. What does that mean for me? Or it's the height of summer and it's hot and humid.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:05:27]:

You know, what does that mean for me today? The new moon is today. We're you're interviewing me on, the new moon in September. So this is, September 14. What does that mean for me? These are things that in other places and times and cultures you would notice, but typically in American culture, we don't notice.

Teri Schmidt [00:05:56]:

Yeah. Have you always noticed this? Tell us a little bit about How you have gotten to this place where you do notice this and and use this to shape how you lead and work today?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:06:09]:

I definitely didn't always notice this.

Teri Schmidt [00:06:11]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:06:12]:

I only started noticing this seriously in 2021 When my business at the time was in the midst of a big boom cycle, like we had so many clients, people asking, we had a very active funnel and Facebook. And, but I got, I was overwhelmed and I needed to stop, but I didn't feel like I could. Mhmm. And I had a coaching session with someone where we just tapped just a tiny bit into my, my true self. And I just heard myself say, Amanda needs to stop everything. Mhmm. Amanda needs to stop everything. Amanda needs to stop everything.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:06:55]:

The trees want to adopt her. And so that was, that really woke me up because I well, I was thinking of the trees.

Teri Schmidt [00:07:08]:

Right. Because what what were you what were you doing prior to that point?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:07:14]:

Prior to that point, I was like on Zoom, a zillion hours a day. I had a team of like 20 people. I was going constantly. I was wondering, like how to run a business, how to do the things that were most effective, you know, and stopped doing the things that were costing a lot of money and that weren't effective. I mean, I was just learning at a very high pace, which I like. Cause as we said, in the beginning of the call, I am a sprinter, but, And as you said, sprinters rest after sprints. And yeah, and I, and I just was not building in unwind and rest as part of the cycle of being in business for yourself.

Teri Schmidt [00:07:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. And particularly, I'm imagining 2021 because you were involved in racial justice work. Correct?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:08:06]:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I have been working hard. I have been sprinting, I would say, since 2015. Mhmm. That is a long time

Teri Schmidt [00:08:18]:

to do. Sprint.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:08:19]:

That's a exactly. And it's a long time to do work that is, emotionally taxing and very, calls on the, on the person who is intervening

Teri Schmidt [00:08:33]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:08:33]:

be an agent of change, to do the work of transformation within herself. So it, it was, Yeah. So it was a massive sprint that just got really hard right toward the end. And finally, I just couldn't keep going. Mhmm. And, and I began the slow down, you know, that we talked about. Like when you sprint, you run fast, fast, fast, fast, and then you can't immediately stop. You have to run it through, you have to run it out, you know? And so, so I ran it out probably until November, December of 2021, and then 2022 And much of 2023 has been a lot of, Slowing, slowing, noticing, recalibrating.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:09:28]:

Like, where do I get my cues from? You know? Mhmm.

Teri Schmidt [00:09:32]:

Who do

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:09:32]:

I want to advise me on how to be in business for myself? I had been in a, a program that was very, what do you call it? Type A driven leader. And so, so I I mimic that because I thought that's what it would take to be, profitable.

Teri Schmidt [00:09:52]:

Right. It's so interesting how We have so many inputs that we could listen to, and it and it sounds like you were kind of almost knocked over the head with This is what you should be listening to. This is what you are going to need to listen to in order to sustain the work that you wanna do and sustain the person that you want to continue to be.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:10:15]:

Or really to grow into the next version of myself. Mhmm. At first I thought it was, as I slowed down, I thought it was about self care. And as I continued my journey, I realized, no, it's about a deeper level of liberation.

Teri Schmidt [00:10:32]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:10:33]:

So I was working in the realm of racial justice. I would say on the surface level, on the level of, leaves and flowers, maybe some stems, but the deeper work, the work at the soil and at the root, means I had to really see the bigger systems in which racial injustice operates. And the bigger systems in which people who were standing for racial justice, what we were still pulling from, what the soil that was feeding our work. Mhmm. Because one of the things that's really become clear to me is that burnout is endemic, meaning it is going to happen in the, in the realm of social justice. If we do it from the soil and from the roots of the systems in which we currently work. So in the system of capitalism, the system of white supremacy, a patriarchy Mhmm. Colonization.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:11:42]:

As long as we're rooted in those systems, then the work that we do to change them, just circulates within them. It doesn't actually fundamentally shift them. It doesn't actually transform them. So then we have these back and forth, you know, you know, the Supreme Court decision, that Supreme Court decision, this president, that president. But it's also within the realm, within the soil of these systems that are harmful.

Teri Schmidt [00:12:18]:

I I know you talk about regenerative justice work. Mhmm. Tell me more about that and and how that relates to what you were just talking about in terms of not operating from that same soil.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:12:31]:

Yes. So for me, the soil that I want to operate from comes from my direct experience and observation of nature. And there are ways that I see land, trees, plants, fungi, animals moving that, I think we can emulate and therefore be working in a way that is rooted in a foundation of there's enough for everybody. Mhmm. And a foundation of reciprocity in a soil of joy. What's that thing we know when you're you're unfeathered energy. Yeah. That's another word for joy to me.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:13:21]:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So regenerating to me is using principles and practices from the earth in our own living, whether we work in nonprofits or for ourselves, or whether we're retired, whatever we're doing these principles and practices of regeneration can root us in the new paradigm, the new earth. Some people say the 5th dimension. I don't know what that thing is, but I I don't. I have a hard time finding language because, you know, 5th 5th dimension makes sense to some people. New paradigm makes sense to other people. New earth that a lot of people heard about because of the book Uh-huh.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:14:16]:

By Eckhart Tolle. So, but it's like practicing regeneration shifts your vibration, how you be in the world, which attracts other people to you who want to be like that in the world. And we organically, we create, you know, we gather ourselves and we, and we can become a patch or a stand of, of people vibrating at the, at the level of new earth of yes, of this other dimension. And I'm saying this, that it comes from practice and being because I don't have a, an ideology to say, or, you know, Follow these 5 steps, everyone, and you're gonna get to x. It's more like we need to in engage in practice and learning and sharing.

Teri Schmidt [00:15:29]:

Yeah. So how does that Relate, or or is it different than what you were talking about before in terms of burnout being endemic if we continue to Do social justice work from the place of being rooted in the soil that is, you know, causing the problem in the 1st place.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:15:49]:

Right. So, one of the foundational pieces to me of white supremacy or patriarchy or colonization culture is us versus them. So, you know, you're with us or you're against us. You're good or you're bad. That kind of dualistic thinking. And the problem is that when you are working to make change, it can be very effective. It can be very clarifying. It can help you build, movement and motion for change when you make the people who you disagree with, or the people who are pursuing another agenda, or the people who are in management, or the people who are of a different racial background, or whatever.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:16:44]:

If when you can make them a them Mhmm. That is absolutely not us. It's, you know, it's fast.

Teri Schmidt [00:16:53]:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:16:54]:

You know, you can like whip people up, whip yourself up, and make all kinds of sacrifices immediately or for a time. Mhmm. The problem is that us versus them doesn't just work when you're talking about people who you consider the enemy. It's at work in your brain and in your organizations and in your families, even when you're around the people who are part of the, them. So you start, you use that and you start to create tension, fear, hiding, lying, because you don't want to be cast out of the us. And when you disagree with people in your own family, organization, church, temple. By making them a them, it's harder to build something together. What you have to do is someone has to lose and someone has to win, someone has to get cast out or someone has to pretend in order to stay within.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:18:04]:

Yeah. But pretending saps your energy. It creates tension. And even if you think, okay, yeah, we're all on board with this goal, but there are people pretending because there's no other option for them. Will holds you back on reaching that goal?

Teri Schmidt [00:18:28]:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:18:30]:

There will always be so much internal resistance, you know? Yeah. And you'll say to yourself, why can't we get this one thing done? And it's because there is pretending that's happening, not real agreement because when we have conflict, it's us versus them and it's not really safe to disagree. Because we'll be cast out. And so I hope I've said it clearly enough so you can see it playing out inside of families, inside of, you know, work situations, inside of community organizations where most people are volunteering. And it also happens on the individual level inside of me. If there are parts of me that I exile, that I'm not willing to Mhmm. Be with, but that I have to constantly reject, then, I'm I don't really have What I talked about earlier with that unfettered joy or that unfettered energy. I don't have access to that because I'm spending a lot of it pushing down, holding back, you know, some part of myself.

Teri Schmidt [00:19:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting As you were talking about that and the the us us versus them, I was thinking back to a conversation I had. I think it was when Nina Simons was on the podcast, or maybe through her book. And she was talking about those places in nature where there's the most diversity. That's where you have the most flourishing.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:20:01]:


Teri Schmidt [00:20:02]:

And I'm I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that In relation to what you were just talking about in that sometimes when there's a lot of diversity, it's easy to slip into the us versus them because Everyone wants to belong, and they're not sure what belonging looks like. And they're not sure how they're gonna get that safety in this, what they perceive to be a, you know, a diverse group, a diverse community. So that almost seems like that would lead to the opposite. You know? We wouldn't have that flourishing. Mhmm. Whereas it seems to be in nature, that's the opposite. And I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:20:47]:

Yeah. I'm thinking about the reading I've done, like, in, In Search of the Mother

Teri Schmidt [00:20:52]:

tree Mhmm.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:20:53]:

By Suzanne Simard. And one of the things that she found, and she's not the only one, of course, but set, you know, trees grow better and stronger when they're not like mono monocropped. You know what I mean? When there is diversity, there's gonna be, more balance, more harmony and singularity is where you are more subject to disease, like, wiping you out or, you know, a a certain kind of beetle. You know, if

Teri Schmidt [00:21:31]:

Mhmm. Right.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:21:33]:

You're just not as resilient as when you've got more variety around you and that you're a part of. Mhmm. Mhmm. So when we are in, diverse groupings of people where we have diversity of ideas and lived experience, it's not necessarily easier. Because in some ways, it's easy to be monocrop, to be with people who think like you.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:00]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:22:03]:

But within every group and even within yourself, there is already diversity. And so to me, the challenge is to be, is to be moving at the pace where you're willing to engage with and be with all the parts of yourself and to listen to what they need. And I think if we practice that with ourselves, we have more space to practice it with other people in larger groupings.

Teri Schmidt [00:22:36]:

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say the the same thing. I you know, that what you were speaking about, what we need to do with ourselves is exactly what a good leader should be doing In a team or in a community. Thank you for calling that out. I know one other thing you talk about is How we sometimes fall into the roles of victim Mhmm. Or savior and how that harms our ability To create a more just future. Can you tell me a little bit more about your perspective on that?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:23:07]:

Yeah. For I I wanna say out loud that bad things are happening, and that anyone who's gone through something difficult and tough, you have gone through something difficult and tough. You know? There has been colonization. There has been slavery. There has been Jim Crow. There has been segregation. There have been people, you know, killed for trying to create unions. There have been, you know, people whose land has been taken against their will.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:23:35]:

I mean, bad things have happened. When I talk about the roles of victim and savior, what I'm talking about is in the face of bad things happening or having happened, what do we do? How do we view each other? When I view myself as a savior, someone who's coming in to help you because something bad has happened to you, I am putting myself on a pedestal. Mhmm. And if my identity, my sense of goodness, if my sense of of being empowered, if my sense of of of just who I know myself to be as a Amanda Aminata requires me to be a savior. That is someone who quote, saves the planet or saves communities or saves children, then I'm going to constantly look around and see victims.

Teri Schmidt [00:24:43]:

Yeah. It almost seems like that's just another way to frame us versus them. Another way for us to have clarity and feel safe.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:24:53]:

Yes. And to feel like we belong and to feel like we have a role to play. And I, you know, I'm a double Virgo for anybody out there who follows astrology. I am just one of those people who has a profound desire to serve and help and just make things better. And I know if you by the name of your podcast, strong leaders serve, which probably talking to some of the same people. Something in us feels Good. And feels like we're on track when we are doing something to make things better for the whole. And I honor us, you know, God bless us.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:25:43]:

Or, you know, you can say whatever you want to say to us. We need to be here. But When we see ourselves as saviors, when we see something as needing to be saved, so who will step up and be a savior? Then we're starting to put ourselves inside of a story that over emphasizes what's needed from us and causes us to miss the, the ways in which we are part of the problem. So you're so right. When you said it's like us versus the it's like, if I'm a savior, then obviously I'm part of the us And it keeps being part of the us. I just need to keep saving. And I just want to say one last thing about saving because wow, I had a profound experience. I was meditating a few days ago because we're coming up on the, the fall equinox since we're in September.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:26:37]:

And I was asking for what do I need to teach? What do I need to focus on with this Equinox is turning into fall? And, and I had this very strong sense that mother earth does not need us to save her. People to save her. She is massive. She is massively intelligent and she is already doing stuff according to her intelligence. I I got the sense that I was like an ant in her world. Mhmm. For me, ants walk by, and I don't pay much attention. Mhmm.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:27:19]:

I gotta I got that sense, and I and I felt sad. I was like, wait a minute. I wanna be important. I mean, Mike, this makes me feel bad. I can't be telling people their dance. Do what you want to do. Mother Earth is, you know, you ain't nothing to her. I was like, oh my God, I got a little like what is going on? And then I started thinking about it more and I realized, you know, but each of us is here.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:27:45]:

If I'm here, What am I here for? To me, the truth of it, the ultimate truth of what I'm here for and each, Each living being is here for is to vibrate in their true nature, to be their true nature. So. So my true nature, if I, if I look at Like to me, true nature is your unique expression of love. So how can I be my unique expression of love? And I don't have to worry that, well, is this unique? Is this too much like Terry's expression? That's not what I mean. What I hate It's just, don't look to Terry to follow her expression of love. Start looking at yourself and saying, what is my true expression of love? And, you know, where is there flow and ease in my body when, when I'm doing some things or thinking certain things. And, So I feel like what, instead of being saviors, what we, what we can do is be our true expression of love. And if we're being that, then we're going to work and rest and savor and let go.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:29:03]:

We're just gonna be in the harmony, the rhythm, the dynamic process of living. We're we're just we're gonna be here doing our part.

Teri Schmidt [00:29:12]:

That resonates so much with a lot of what we talk about in terms of being grounded in who you are. And we talk a lot about Strengths and values, but I think definitely aligned with with what you're talking about, you know, your true expression of love And your unique expression of love. I'm curious. Do you have a story about how you have seen This played out in terms of someone who is perhaps doing some justice work and is instead of looking at people as the victims that they are saving, they've taken that that different approach and had success with that. Any stories come to mind?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:29:53]:

I'm thinking about my husband. Mhmm. My husband is a violinist, and he's white, and I'm black. And, one of the things that really came to me so strongly, we've been married for a long time. But one of the things that just finally really made sense to me this summer was realizing that my husband is here to his true expression of love really comes through that instrument. Mhmm. Like, in some ways, he's the instrument of the divine or he's the instrument of of the, of the universe, but then his, the instrument of him is the violin. And he's so devoted to it.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:30:37]:

Like He really loves it. Mhmm. And he really likes to play it. Mhmm. I mean, it's his job, but he likes to play it. He savors it.

Teri Schmidt [00:30:48]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:30:48]:

So for a time I wanted him to be doing more racial justice work. And I really felt like he didn't care the way I care. And I had an insight this summer that said, you know, We don't need everybody to hear the way you care, Amanda. Because the way that highly empathetic people care Mhmm. Is a specific nervous condition. I mean, you know, it's great and it's, it's hella hard to have this be one of your super powers. So, so let him express his true expression, the way that is for him. And don't judge him if he's not like you.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:31:47]:

So in answer to your question, which was like, so doing justice work differently. Mhmm. What I'm seeing is that not everybody is going to feel as intensively as I feel, and it doesn't make them wrong or bad. Number 2, the impact that I have on people as someone working for justice or who cares so deeply and justice is an expression of caring, can affect people in other spaces to become more caring you in, in being their unique vibration. Mhmm.

Teri Schmidt [00:32:30]:

I I think sometimes whether it is that someone's a type a personality or just Really flourishes when they can see the direct impact of their actions.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:32:42]:


Teri Schmidt [00:32:42]:

I think sometimes The thought of just being who you are and living that out and possibly never knowing The ways in which you've impacted other people isn't very attractive. But that's what I'm hearing that is The way that we can perhaps be most effective and most impactful, even if we don't see it, is that just being who we are, being grounded in that.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:33:10]:

Yeah. I'm 57, and I've been doing what I would think of as social justice consciously probably since I was 16. So what is that 40 years in 41 years in? And, and I would say this broader view of vibrating as our true nature of aligning, of looking to the earth rather to rather than to these other institutions in our lives for direction. It's made me see justice as it's far bigger and deeper than, you know, laws and policies. And it's even deeper than the flash points when We get so mad and so fed up with, you know, police killing innocent people or with wars happening. It's just, I've gotten to a deeper, broader timeline and to more acceptance of to change something like this. It isn't going to be top down and it isn't going to be led by a particular ideology. It's really, it is going to require collective action, but that collective action when it is organic, when it is coming from this willingness to vibrate truthfully and not the anxiety to make people more like you.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:34:44]:

Mhmm. It's like, that's when we're gonna break through.

Teri Schmidt [00:34:47]:

That's interesting. So you mentioned that, you know, not definitely not being top down. I would say a lot of the research shows that a lot of the younger generation is Is very focused on social impact, social justice. And I don't say that to say that those of us in the older generations aren't, But it seems to be a particular priority that is more out in the open for these new leaders that are coming into Organizations. If you were sitting across from either a younger version of you or or a new leader who is really, You know, just wanting to make their workplace more compassionate and just. What would your advice for them be?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:35:29]:

My advice would be My question would be, tell me where it hurts. Tell me where it hurts for you, where in your body let's, where is it the disease or clutch or whatever. And The reason why I say that is because you operating from place of ease, flow of joy of unfettered energy is what will help you to come up with solutions, ideas, ways of being with people that produce more justice and compassion. If you try to come at justice in the workplace from your head, you may not be paying attention to where there's fee here. And just like we said, when they're when we people pretend, but there's internal resistance and we can't figure why we're not getting anywhere, You have your pretenders. Yeah. And and so, frankly, I think we all need, Every young leader, every old leader needs a mentor or coach and a community, or at least a buddy where they can do this kind of inquiry and, and grounding.

Teri Schmidt [00:36:58]:

Well, this time has flown by, and it has been a type of conversation that has planted a lot of seeds of thought in my mind. I know that I'm gonna, You know, continue to cultivate and and think about. So thank you for that. If there are people, in the audience that want To learn more about you, learn more about your work. Where is the best place for them to go?

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:37:24]:

If they're on LinkedIn, I would send them to doctor Amanda Kemp. Facebook, same name, Doctor Amanda Kemp. And I really recommend people go to my my website because they'll find my podcast, they'll find all kinds of information, cribies, that's

Teri Schmidt [00:37:45]:


Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:37:46]:

Teri Schmidt [00:37:49]:

Excellent. Well, we'll make sure those are linked so that it's very easy for people to find you. But thank you again for your time today. Thank you for the journey that you've been on and the work That you continue to do. Our world is better because of it.

Dr. Amanda Aminata Kemp [00:38:06]:

Thank you. I accept that. I received that. Thank you.

Teri Schmidt [00:38:14]:

I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And if you're in the United States listening to this on the day that it comes out, I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Until next time. Lead with this quote by Lao Tzu in mind: Nature does not hurry, but everything is accomplished.


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