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109. Rethinking Leadership with Carol Sanford: Rediscovering Our Ability to Think for Ourselves

Discover a new way of leadership that is:

  • Not about delegation, but about building capability

  • Not about moving people toward externally-defined objectives, but about nurturing the environment in which they develop their potential

  • Not about motivating people with goals, but about connecting them to a larger customer-focused purpose

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."-Albert Einstein

Our guest, Carol Sanford is a bestselling and award winning business educator, event producer, podcaster and author. For four decades, she has worked with great leaders of successful businesses such as Google, Dupont, Intel, PNG and Seventh Generation, educating them to develop people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation.

In this episode, you will learn the following:

  1. The capacity of humans to self-direct, rather than follow authority or external advice

  2. How leaders should act as re-sources, building the capacity of others to think for themselves

  3. How to inspire development and organizational change by connecting people to a customer-focused purpose that requires development and then nurturing the environment in which that development can take place

Resources shared:

About Carol:

Carol Sanford
Carol Sanford

Carol Sanford is a best-selling, award-winning business educator, summit producer, podcaster, and author. She is a consistently recognized thought leader working side by side with Fortune 500 and new economy executives in designing and leading systemic business change and design. Through her university and in-house educational offerings, global speaking platforms, best-selling, multi-award-winning books, and developmental work, Carol works with executive leaders who see the possibility to change the nature of work through developing people and work systems that ignite motivation everywhere. For four decades, Carol has worked with great leaders of successful businesses such as Google, DuPont, Intel, P&G, and Seventh Generation, educating them to develop people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation that continually delivers extraordinary outcomes.

Carol is the author of The Regenerative Business, The Responsible Entrepreneur, The Responsible Business, The Regenerative Life, and No More Feedback: Cultivate Consciousness at Work. Her books have won over 27 awards so far and are required reading in multiple departments at leading universities, including Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, and MIT. Carol also partners with producing executive education through Babson College, Kaospilot in Denmark, University of Washington, and The Lewis Institute at Babson as Senior Fellow of Social Innovation. For 40 years she’s collaborated with clients to develop people to grow and express their inherent singularity. Google’s Food Lab uses her Responsible Business Framework. Learn more at and the Business Second Opinion podcast.


While it's not perfect, we offer this transcription by Capsho for those who prefer to read or who are hearing impaired.

Albert Einstein once said, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

Now, I don't know about you, but I think there are several problems that need solving around us, and so it can get really exciting when we hear a new approach. However, although it's exciting and good clickbait to want to blow up conventional ideas and our ways of operating for the sake of doing so, the newness and maybe even the hope it brings, blowing them up just for the sake of doing so is not an approach I agree with.

But when I see someone who is challenging my way of thinking and has results that benefit people in workplaces and communities, I take note. Carol Sanford, our guest today, described by her grandfather as a positive contrarian, is a bestselling and award winning business educator, summit producer, podcaster and author. For four decades, Carol has worked with great leaders of successful businesses such as Google, Dupont, Intel, PNG and Seventh Generation. She's educated them to develop people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation that continually delivers extraordinary outcomes. Her books have won over 27 awards so far and are required reading in multiple departments at leading universities, including Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and MIT.

So yes, she has some results.

So when I was first introduced to Carol in one of her books, Indirect Work, I committed to start on the mind shifting journey to understand, evaluate and potentially apply the principles of regeneration that she teaches. After all, her book that I was introduced to, Indirect Work, is advertised as a path to a self motivated evolutionary change in service to a greater whole. That sounded pretty good to me. Paired with her results, knowing that there was a new approach that might stretch my mind got me pretty excited. And I have to say that I'm just beginning the journey and that there is a lot that I still have to critically think through. But I wanted to bring you along in this journey as the little learning that I've done so far has opened my mind, helped me to build connections between my beliefs about the inherent value in individuals and our potential for positive change in workplaces and in our society. So get ready to have your mind stretched a bit and let's go on this journey together today. I'm Teri Schmidt, founder of Stronger to Serve, and this is the Stronger to Serve. So this learning that I've gleaned from Carol over the past several weeks comes from reading Indirect Work, listening to her podcast titled Business Second Opinion, and from our conversation that you'll get to hear highlights from. And because I'm all about being a resource for you, by providing you ideas that you can use to develop your potential and shape your leadership, I'm limiting this episode to four ideas that have struck me the most so far. These ideas have to do with rediscovering our ability to think for ourselves instead of relying on authorities or experts why you matter and what it means to achieve your potential. Note it's not about meeting someone else's criteria or fitting into someone's competency model. A new view of the role a leader should play, and finally, how to inspire development and organizational change. But before we get into that, let's meet Carol and learn a little bit about her. I started off by asking her about the highlights in her journey to where she is today.

Carol Sanford 00:04:17 You have any idea what it's like to ask an 80 year old woman that there are millions of highlights because they get picked up and stronger and closer together as you get older. So I'll give you two that might inform how it is. I write how my entire work and communities have been built. The first one is I was blessed to have a grandfather who is half Mohawk, which is one of the tribes of the Iroquois nation who the United States use their constitution to form ours. So I am in the stream of learning and education of that same energy. And my grandfather was very wise and I got to be with him a lot while I was from about nine years old until 14 when he died. And so I have a lot of indigenous grounding. It pervades much of my thinking. And I dedicated my second book to him and to my grandson who shares a name with him, and it kind of poured over me. The second event is I went to UC Berkeley in the middle of the Free Speech Movement and the war in Vietnam. I was strongly impacted by it, but more importantly, all that was happening while I was sitting in a classroom with a man named Thomas Coon who wrote The Structure of the Scientific Revolution and introduced us all to the idea of paradigm shift. He was in Philosophy of Science, so he was looking at science shifting from one era to another and shifting all the beliefs we held. And he had just published or was publishing his new book at that time. And when we asked him, as we come to understand how all of A sitting in the room with him were from such a different paradigm and background, from Pakistani to Indian to Israeli, Russian, Mexican people from the Pacific, it was very broad. It was a large classroom too. We went to Stronger to Serve with him, which was a pub of sorts, except that it was I don't even remember alcohol. I remember a lot of coffee he chartered with us. When we asked him, how do you help people shift paradigms? Because among us we could see how we were a student changing away from our cultures. He said, Well, I'm going to leave that up to you to figure it out. I figured out the first step and I took that so seriously. My whole life has been a strong connection between my grandfather, my Thomas Coon. That was only like a year or maybe a little more. And then I did study quite a bit of wisdom. Folks sat in with Hindu teachers and Zen teachers. So that's probably how I got to be the mess that I am.

Teri Schmidt 00:07:40 I don't know if I'd call it the mess, but I know you're a disruptor and have done some really game changing work in different businesses.

Carol Sanford 00:07:50 Well, my grandfather named me the positive contrarian, and that was part of him teaching me to be that role more strongly because it was in my essence, which was, don't accept anything you're given from other people, but don't reject it either. And learn how to examine by starting with asking, where did this idea come from? How far back? What's sourcing it and how it is you find what's missing in it or entered upside down, but don't ever make anything wrong, just make it clearer and deeper. And so he said, you're a positive contrarian and it's going to be very useful to you and other people.

Teri Schmidt 00:08:39 I like that positive contrarian. I think there's so much of just tearing things down, especially in our society today.

Carol Sanford 00:08:47 Well, in my household, you're not allowed to disagree with anyone unless you also agree to love them forever. In other words, you can't disagree with only people you don't like or uncomfortable with. You have to adopt a sense caring in a deep way. And now you can have a conversation that has the differences of opinion.

Teri Schmidt 00:09:11 Let me just jump in here to highlight that point. Just think of how much better our communities would be if we followed that rule. You can't disagree with anyone unless you also agree to love them forever. Will you think about that today when you're reading the news or working with a difficult coworker? What does that look like for you? We continued to discuss Carol's journey with her, sharing her recent diagnosis of ALS.

Carol Sanford 00:09:40 Well, I only was diagnosed four months ago after having had it for eight years and not knowing it. So I got an airplane. If I do, I took a wheelchair. I had no idea. In September, I was diagnosed and what it changed with me accelerating my engagement out in the world. Most people with the wrong go inside, but I felt like I had a much fewer years now and I knew I would lose my voice, which you can hear. We're doing voice banking today to try and save some so I can communicate. But I found it to be a conscious dying process for all my members who are in the two communities I still run. I have to talk slower and more precise in order to be heard. But we now meet every couple of months, although that's probably going to crunch down to every couple of weeks very shortly, because I feel my own body declining very rapidly. But I'm sharing with people what's going on with the process of my body kicking me out so my soul didn't get to live here anymore. And you can't do much without a body. So I'm trying to use the last few months I have a body, or maybe you're misheard, to know, to help people learn in the Western world about the process of dying. I personally am using a Buddhist Buddhist philosophy not every practice, but not a Western world view of death where you don't talk about it, you pick heaven or hell or somebody picks it for you. I don't find any of that very useful. ALS is a crushing disease. It's very expensive and it suffocates you slowly. Who in the hell wants to die like that, right? So I have been looking at understanding how I could be in the journey in a way I could stay conscious. And I found practices that me and a group of couple hundred people are exploring, including after my death, what happens in other societies. It changed a lot in that I'm not focusing on my death. I'm not afraid they're dying, so that's helpful. But it took a lot of years of letting go of the attachment. And speaking of, my body is not me. Like I said, my body is kicking me out, right? My spirit and my soul will go on, as the song says. But my body gets to say behind, become posted and maybe join with the earth again to be food of life.

Teri Schmidt 00:12:38 So you can see that the wisdom we're about to dig into is coming from a very grounded woman with a lot of experience. Speaking of grounding, it may be helpful if I talk through a framework that Carol introduces in her book Indirect Work that has to do with worldviews that determine how we take in and react to information. This framework has three levels of worldviews. The first level is authority, where instead of anchoring our thinking in our own experience and the development of our own reasoning and discernment, we give this authority to others like experts, influencers, thought leaders. The effect of this is a constant erosion of creativity, responsibility and agency in citizens and organizations alike. Second level is the humanist level, where we believe in the potential goodness in all things and work hard to nurture this goodness in our children, relationships and environment. Our first premises are that human nature and the world are perfectable and it is the responsibility of humans to promote this perfection. Carol notes that the problem with this is that we see humans as agents who act upon the world instead of within the world. This makes us believe that if we can just get enough resources, info and power, we can push society or nature to rearrange itself. To be honest, this is probably the world view that I hold most often. But finally, we have the living systems view where we start from the assumption that all living beings have their own agency and purpose. There is no need to impose our will or our ideas of what they should be. Instead, our work is to cultivate the humility and receptivity that allows us to understand what they are striving to become. Understanding these world views, at least at a base level, will help you to understand a little bit more of the rest of the episode. In light of this, I asked how you, who may be new in your leadership role, could approach the lack of confidence you might feel in a way that didn't just default to relying on others authority. In other words, how can you, as a new leader, approach your learning more from the living systems worldview? It was kind of a funny question to ask Carol because in a sense I was asking for her advice as an authority about how to not rely only on others advice.

Carol Sanford 00:15:16 So you're right, I don't give advice and I won't now. But I'll give a process that might give you a way to think about it. I believe that we have created so many artificial ideas about how humans work, how motivation works, and I'm trying to finish my last book before I die, hopefully get it done this summer. It's about the damage that authority, and not just authority, but any external assumed better ideas is to our society. And you might want to read about something well, in my new book, hopefully. It's called no More Gold Stars. About how we change our epistemology. So one in epistemology is how we know, how we learn and how we change. And we get a theory of that. Don't know we have it. And so our theory for the last 120 years has been behaviorism. And the reason is the psychology world started studying animals and transferring its people, particularly dogs. You probably heard of Pavlov and the dog ringing the bell. Almost everybody knows. They don't know that. Our education and our leadership system is based on the city of dogs initially and then other animals and transfer to humans. The problem is that leaves out the unique human capacity because of our frontal lobes, our ability to project into the future, our ability to separate two parts of ourselves so we can watch ourselves while we do so. Therefore, we can have something called consciousness and we can have a strong connection to other people that most animals cannot do. So the role you've just been promoted into is based on the study of dogs and gorillas, which have a bit more development, but they're still missing that all humans are designed to be self directed. We have, as I said, self observing, self remembering capacity. And if you watch yourself, that's probably the best thing to do is keep noticing how you work. So my philosophy when I'm trying to people are asking for advice, is let me give you a little exercise here. Let me give you listen to a little exercise, take an event where you last were given authority advice and ask yourself, what did I tell myself when that happened? They say, well, they're my boss. I have to do what they say anyway, or they're a higher authority of some kind or debt. I say wait. I'm going to double check that with my experience, and I'm going to try out what they said, and I'm going to try it again what I said, and we're going to re examine this idea that's coming in. And if we can learn to do self examination based on all external information ideas, we'll be a very different kind of leader. Also, most people do judge it because they go, and if they're really set up to follow authorities or experts, they tend to underline and make notes and get ready to go apply and throw it in with the mix of all their other stuff, whether it's consistent or not, or you're mixing a bunch of stuff. If you can learn to watch yourself and how you're reacting, not watch my ideas and what I thought, but examine them by examining yourself, you'll have a very powerful life. You'll probably create so much change that makes the world better for all of us if you get things that way. I'm always so happy to hear people say what you did, which is it turned my world upside. All my books that do that, they're designed to turn people's attachments and their identifications upside down. Attachments being what I believe about how things work and always have and always will, and identification is what I identify myself with a belief system, a religion, a family history, a national cause. If me and I are saying we're going to miss all the opportunity for our life to be fulfilling, to be meaningful and significant to those around us, and that's a tragic thing to happen.

Teri Schmidt 00:20:13 Okay, so notice how you work and how you react to information. In her book Indirect Work, Carol makes this real and gives you a chance to practice this through the end of chapter Intermezos, in which she asks you to journal about how you are reading and reacting to the material with questions such as, how am I reading? And how is this affecting my interpretation of the text? What am I projecting on to the text that isn't really there? How am I letting myself get in my own way? As I try to hear the author out? You get a chance to practice and strengthen your self observing capacity. So the first element I've learned from Carol's work so far is that we need to know ourselves and develop our ability to think for and trust ourselves at Stronger to Serve. You know that we start with making sure that you as a leader are grounded and know who you are. This idea that we just discussed, that I learned from Carol's book adds an element to that process. Looking critically at where those beliefs about yourself came from and trusting your grounding and your critical thinking to produce unique insights that benefit those around you. But why should you trust yourself? That gets to another underlying principle of regeneration and Carol's work. And the second key point that I learned that every being has a unique essence, something unique they can contribute. In her words, the essence is the source of their potential and it has to be developed. That belief is the sole reason that I found it Stronger to Serve the belief in the unique potential of each person to impact the world around them. Now, Carol says that when you have an experience where you feel like you're not being yourself, that's a sign that you're not able to express your essence. You're playing a role that you don't fit and you lose the ability to grow, to be creative and even to succeed. Our work to discover that essence is what we do in the ground phase of our leadership development model and at the beginning of every coaching engagement that we have, because we want you to instead have more experiences, like Carol described after that, where she said, you are growing and contributing and feel really fulfilled. That is when your essence is being developed and your potential is being achieved. But achieving your potential is not about external standards or generic ideals about what you should be, but instead about you being yourself, about developing and contributing your unique essence. This idea runs throughout all of Carol's work and I can't wait to learn more about it. The third idea that I learned from Carol's work is the idea of the leader as a resource. And it might not be in quite the way that you think. Let's hear what she had to say.

Carol Sanford 00:23:15 So I don't have any such thing as a leader in my head. I do have a leadership. And leadership is a living process, not in person, but in a field of energy. I build something called resources re and I put a hyphen source. Source. And what they are is in companies that work with me for a long time, all the things that used to be called managers and supervisors become resources. All are building capability, evolving capacity, rather than the delegation goes away and education steps in when it's working in a role. But no one is a hierarchy over anyone else. So leadership leaves the idea that some people can lead and others can must be because we have only a few of them and they're honored in a great way. But what we want is every human being of that kind of resourcing role where you build the capacity of others to be a source for themselves and to return to themselves and examining the source of their own thinking. So if we got to have somebody making a final decision, well, I've got about 100 companies who disprove that because communities can. If you've got what I call frameworks and they're living systems. They're a different way to think. They're how I come to the conclusions I do. If you can teach people living systems and framework thinking, they all begin to see what's real and what would be best. Instead of making a decision at the top, you have people who say, I can see that part of it and I can see that and I want to take on that role. And it's not you don't splinter because you start from a hole and understanding it. So you don't actually need someone at the top making a decision. You need something at the top making a decision. And I call that corporate direction in essence. And once a company has that or a family or a neighborhood or not for profit, you're now operating. And I don't like missions, vision, all that's human arrogance. Corporate direction is the body of the whole. It doesn't mean a C Corp. This is not a tax category. Corporate direction is the body of a whole comes to a direction. And we teach people how to do that at our institute and then they come to understand their own essence. My essence is disrupt certainty. It's very strong. If people start sounding really certain, I pretty much can figure out a way to make them question their beliefs. That's the most very important role. And I have to also love them for it, can do that for them. And I have to not be attached to I have the right answers. But if you get that as the leading light or the leading sensitive direction, you can have I did in South Africa 3000 people learning how to run a profound new company in the rising of the new South Africa and changing townships since the weather went alexander without authority deciding but with everyone developing and aligning. And this story is sold in depth in my newest book no More Gold Stars, where you quit thinking this way about you have to go up the ranks for approval. And you all are drawing off this corporate direction essence, including your own essence. Unbelievable what we did South Africa where we grew the company 35% to 65% in revenue in about half a year. Remove the quote, leadership from being 195 percent white to 95% black African, which the Constitution required all companies to do in five years, we did in six months. And without violence. We were the only company in all South Africa which had zero violence. Zero. People turning against each other.

Teri Schmidt 00:28:03 Okay? As a resource we're helping return people to themselves to help them understand their essence, develop practices of self observation and critical thinking and achieve their potential. A couple of sayings related to this that I heard from Carol on episodes of her business Second Opinion podcast and that can help you to practice this today are number one answers. Destroy agency. The job of a leader is not to provide all of the answers, but instead to redirect people to their own critical thinking. And number two, as a leader, focus on developing people in terms of what is innate but not complete in them. This is the focus of our coaching here at Stronger to Serve and why our model goes from ground to grow, to give and back again. The final learning that I've gleaned from my conversation with Carol and from her work has to do with development and organizational change. Interestingly enough, this point combines a conversation about our current political divide in the United States, about Isaac Newton, about Billiard Balls, and about a matrix. Let's start with Carol's comments about our current political divide as it lays some of the groundwork for the conversation on development and organizational change.

Carol Sanford 00:29:28 It just occurred to me we're all, if we're halfway awake or disturbed by what's happening in our country and dividedness and divisiveness and conflict and war. And I love my book, The Regenerative Business, which all my books are full of case stories, but this one is particularly the number of companies around the world that have worked I've been blessed to work with and changes. And one of the things I always play with them with is I say that there are three political parties and they always look at me talking about Europe or something, then no, there are three political positions. And what people don't know is each of them have one third of the way to think about it. And what they do is make the other two wrong, or at least one of them went deeper wrong. And they actually are the three core ways for humans to function life. The first one is with internal locus of control. I take responsibility for my life or how it is I affect people, how I affect planet and Mother Earth, and including my own house ownership and ability to make a living. That's great. Now you can see there's one party who would stand really strongly in those shoes. Second party is a little considering. So our ability to think about others before or during or at least after we have done something good effect. And if we get attached to this worldview, we end up wanting to do things for others all the time. Always make sure that we take care of them and we stop the people who don't take care of them. If you're doing it in a systemic way, it's called external considering you don't do any action without looking at its effects, including for me, how you die and how you tell people how you die. That has an effect on our field. And so we end up with one party who's standing strongly in those shoes as opposed to the other one. And the first one is opposed to this one. But there's a third capacity I look at in that book, The Virginity Business, which is called personal agency. You take on things from your point of view and you don't want anybody else stopping you. But if you're in the triad of these three, they work together. All people need to have personal agency and authority undermines the ideas underline that. We need to have external considering, not all internal considering, not all what's about me? And we need to all have local control where we take responsibility for our actions and their effects. All of those exist and we split them into three political parties and then they dig in and only there one hall and no one. Can you see that?

Teri Schmidt 00:32:50 Yeah.

Teri Schmidt 00:32:51 The way you just said it just made me sad.

Carol Sanford 00:32:54 It does. Me too. We did all of it. But we needed in being a more self determining and teaching people how to initiate those each for themselves. Now, that's not indirect work, but indirect work tells you more about how to build a nation, a community, a family, and even a business based on those three.

Teri Schmidt 00:33:18 So, personal agency and locus of control, both of which we talked about. Let's talk now about external considering. The way to really motivate someone to develop, Carol says, is to connect them to a bigger purpose, a potential way to contribute to the end user, the customer or the buyer and then have them discover the self development that is necessary to make that contribution. Think about it. How much more likely are you going to be motivated to develop if you can see how you have the potential to positively impact the customer, but you're self aware enough to know that you have some skills that you need to develop in order to make that positive impact. I know I would be a lot more motivated if I thought about that all the time. After all, isn't that why you're here listening to this podcast? Maybe you're new to your leadership role and you recognize that you have capabilities that could use some development in order for you to make a more positive impact on those around you. Again, that's why the last phase of our leadership development model, which again is more like a spiral than a process flow, is give self development for only the purpose of making yourself feel better, is not what we're about. We're about what positive change you can use that self development for if you think of it like a stream. We want to make the stream of your unique essence or capability flow to nurture the downstream riverbank, not become damned, in which case it becomes stagnant and murky. We believe your development needs an outlet in Carol's organizational change efforts. As I understand them, teams are organized around these worthy contributions that people want to make to the customer and then they work and develop together. The job of the leader is then to nurture the environment or the matrix that allows development to happen. This is different from being a leader who wants to use motivation to move people in. A certain direction like you would with acoustic when playing billiards.

Carol Sanford 00:35:25 Einstein said we try and do it by being a billiard ball player and moving around the things we think should move into the pocket we think it should give him. And Einstein said that's the old way of thinking and we keep using that to design a way out. But the new way is a matrix. And he was referencing carrying a baby in a matrix and how you are thinking. And if you've ever done that I've carried two child, two children to term and raise them. You know that you can't control anything. You can't control your own body anymore. The best you can do is try and take care of the matrix for the baby to take care of itself. So if you're using the Aubilia ball model and looking at what I'm doing, the matrix is like when I'm saying 3000 people in South Africa. Well, if you understand why matrix works, that's not weird at all. So an indirect work we look at that's. The thing that really moves people, shifts them. It's not trying to move them directly, but building their capability to think for themselves. Building a culture where the action, considering the lack of control, et cetera, all the life, and building the capacity for consciousness, those are the fastest ways. If we got 100% or no, 10% of people working on that, we would change the world we're living in so fast. We keep defending Villa ball, which is what Einstein said, as long as we're stuck. And then due to your model, we'll keep recreating the same mess.

Teri Schmidt 00:37:17 I think with our desire for instant gratification. We use the approach that we know to create change because we think it will bring us those instant results. And like you said, and like I've seen so many times in different organizations, change initiatives that maybe last for six months and you think you hit the mark, you think you got the right metrics, but two years later we're right back at the same place.

Teri Schmidt 00:37:43 And then you have a whole group.

Teri Schmidt 00:37:45 Of people who think organizational change is silly and won't ever work because they've been through a process already that didn't work.

Carol Sanford 00:37:55 Let me respond, because I love what you're saying. The other thing that I've noticed is that like in South Africa we had 3000 people, including those inside of Colgate console, their biggest packaging people and many of their distribution channels. And what we noticed is when Sadio Saso, the general manager of Africa, was moved on and watched the next guy come in and dismantle what's the structure and they were also, no, don't be worried. You can take it out of the organizational structure, but you can't take it out of the people. And those people are working in the various townships, councils worked for Mandela at the beginning. All are making change. So working with some new capability into people is much faster and more sustaining.

Teri Schmidt 00:38:56 Okay, so there are my four learnings so far from my initial steps into Carol's work. Number one, the need to develop the capability for critical thinking that involves self observation. Number two, what it means to have an essence and how to develop and express the potential of that essence. Number three, what it means for a leader to be a resource. And number four, how to inspire development and organizational change by connecting people to a customer focused purpose that requires development and then nurturing the environment in which that development can take place. Many, many thanks to Carol for coming on and for her decades of transformative work. I know that my understanding of the principles of regeneration and the concept of indirect work is still very limited, and there's a great opportunity for me to continue to develop because I believe that will benefit you, who are my coaching clients and listeners. I will continue to work on that. Will you join me on this journey? I've linked Carol's website and three particular podcast episodes that I've referenced in the show Notes. Those are great places to start. I look forward to continuing on this journey with you. And until next time, lead with the quote by Albert Einstein that we started with in mind we can't not solve our problems with the same thinking that we used when we created them.


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